1 00:00:06,470 --> 00:00:04,550 on this episode of skeptico 2 00:00:08,870 --> 00:00:06,480 God's rules 3 00:00:10,730 --> 00:00:08,880 there are only two rooms you can't tell 4 00:00:13,070 --> 00:00:10,740 anybody you're God and you can't mess 5 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:13,080 with free will oh 6 00:00:19,670 --> 00:00:16,320 can I ask why yes you can 7 00:00:26,929 --> 00:00:22,849 and what they mean for free will 8 00:00:29,870 --> 00:00:26,939 but what we can do is at every moment of 9 00:00:32,749 --> 00:00:29,880 every day right now we have a choice to 10 00:00:35,389 --> 00:00:32,759 make what am I going to say next how am 11 00:00:38,510 --> 00:00:35,399 I going to live my life in the next hour 12 00:00:41,330 --> 00:00:38,520 this little nugget of Freedom that we 13 00:00:44,209 --> 00:00:41,340 have at every moment of Our Lives 14 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:44,219 that first clip was from the movie Bruce 15 00:00:48,410 --> 00:00:45,540 Almighty 16 00:00:50,930 --> 00:00:48,420 and the second was from today's guest Dr 17 00:00:52,910 --> 00:00:50,940 Stafford Betty you're going to meet in a 18 00:00:55,069 --> 00:00:52,920 minute and I think you're going to like 19 00:00:57,950 --> 00:00:55,079 him as much as I do he's just done a 20 00:01:00,889 --> 00:00:57,960 tremendous amount of work on after death 21 00:01:03,709 --> 00:01:00,899 and he's also a religious scholar and 22 00:01:05,630 --> 00:01:03,719 very very interesting guy I hope you 23 00:01:07,490 --> 00:01:05,640 like the interview 24 00:01:09,469 --> 00:01:07,500 welcome to skeptico where we explore 25 00:01:12,289 --> 00:01:09,479 controversial science and spirituality 26 00:01:14,270 --> 00:01:12,299 with leading researchers thinkers and 27 00:01:18,350 --> 00:01:14,280 their critics I'm your host Alex Karis 28 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:18,360 today I'm excited and honored to welcome 29 00:01:24,590 --> 00:01:21,540 Dr Stanford Betty to skeptico 30 00:01:27,830 --> 00:01:24,600 let me read a little bio here 31 00:01:30,109 --> 00:01:27,840 Stanford Betty earned a PhD from Fordham 32 00:01:32,330 --> 00:01:30,119 was a professor of world religions at 33 00:01:33,830 --> 00:01:32,340 Cal State University Bakersfield for a 34 00:01:35,090 --> 00:01:33,840 long long time just retired a couple 35 00:01:37,670 --> 00:01:35,100 years ago 36 00:01:40,130 --> 00:01:37,680 he has become one of the country's most 37 00:01:42,350 --> 00:01:40,140 acclaimed experts 38 00:01:43,969 --> 00:01:42,360 on the afterlife and you can see 39 00:01:48,230 --> 00:01:43,979 numerous books up there if you're 40 00:01:51,469 --> 00:01:48,240 looking at this on YouTube in 2011 he 41 00:01:53,450 --> 00:01:51,479 published the afterlife unveiled his 42 00:01:55,190 --> 00:01:53,460 most popular book a more recent 43 00:01:58,310 --> 00:01:55,200 publication have it in Hell unveiled 44 00:02:01,069 --> 00:01:58,320 2014 is an in-depth description of 45 00:02:03,770 --> 00:02:01,079 spiritual life with an emphasis on how 46 00:02:05,990 --> 00:02:03,780 Spirits progress from lower to higher 47 00:02:08,449 --> 00:02:06,000 planes I'm always talking about whether 48 00:02:10,370 --> 00:02:08,459 or not there is a hierarchy to 49 00:02:12,050 --> 00:02:10,380 Consciousness and always have to throw 50 00:02:13,550 --> 00:02:12,060 that out there like a question for 51 00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:13,560 people who haven't really looked at the 52 00:02:17,270 --> 00:02:15,360 evidence here's a guy who's looked at 53 00:02:19,130 --> 00:02:17,280 the evidence and says man there's a lot 54 00:02:22,430 --> 00:02:19,140 of evidence for a hierarchy who knows 55 00:02:24,890 --> 00:02:22,440 but if we're just gonna follow the data 56 00:02:26,630 --> 00:02:24,900 Dr Betty's telling you there's a lot of 57 00:02:29,869 --> 00:02:26,640 data there we'll get to that more in a 58 00:02:33,170 --> 00:02:29,879 minute his 11th book when did you ever 59 00:02:36,229 --> 00:02:33,180 become less by dying 60 00:02:38,270 --> 00:02:36,239 uh was in 2016. he's written blogs for 61 00:02:41,330 --> 00:02:38,280 The Huffington Post 62 00:02:45,530 --> 00:02:41,340 um what else written some novels as well 63 00:02:48,710 --> 00:02:45,540 very very nice Raider easy to 64 00:02:50,930 --> 00:02:48,720 engage with the writing and yet it's 65 00:02:53,750 --> 00:02:50,940 forceful and powerful he's written a 66 00:02:57,470 --> 00:02:53,760 number of peer-reviewed Professional 67 00:02:58,910 --> 00:02:57,480 Publications as well and uh again you 68 00:03:01,250 --> 00:02:58,920 know the thing I'll touch on just a 69 00:03:03,170 --> 00:03:01,260 second ago and uh we're gonna make this 70 00:03:05,509 --> 00:03:03,180 an emphasis or a point to emphasize 71 00:03:10,009 --> 00:03:05,519 really is 72 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:10,019 this is a guy who's touched the lives of 73 00:03:15,290 --> 00:03:12,540 thousands of students that have crossed 74 00:03:16,970 --> 00:03:15,300 through his doors over the years with 75 00:03:18,410 --> 00:03:16,980 the kind of with the kind of evidence 76 00:03:20,750 --> 00:03:18,420 he's just going to bring forward here 77 00:03:23,570 --> 00:03:20,760 which you know from listening to the 78 00:03:26,290 --> 00:03:23,580 show is just good solid 79 00:03:29,270 --> 00:03:26,300 scientific as close as we can get 80 00:03:32,530 --> 00:03:29,280 evidence about the afterlife about 81 00:03:35,509 --> 00:03:32,540 materialism about the mind-body problem 82 00:03:37,309 --> 00:03:35,519 and as you know but I think one of the 83 00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:37,319 things we're going to talk about you 84 00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:40,980 know students they don't even get a fair 85 00:03:46,550 --> 00:03:43,860 shot at this data it's not like they're 86 00:03:48,289 --> 00:03:46,560 given oh you know this position and that 87 00:03:50,270 --> 00:03:48,299 position and they're asked to choose 88 00:03:51,070 --> 00:03:50,280 like we think students are supposed to 89 00:04:01,550 --> 00:03:51,080 do 90 00:04:04,970 --> 00:04:01,560 get a chance at this stuff so I think 91 00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:04,980 it's really exciting to talk to you 92 00:04:10,490 --> 00:04:08,280 today and uh Stafford welcome thank you 93 00:04:13,190 --> 00:04:10,500 so much for joining me well I'm honored 94 00:04:13,850 --> 00:04:13,200 and flattered I appreciate that 95 00:04:16,430 --> 00:04:13,860 um 96 00:04:18,650 --> 00:04:16,440 I I don't know whether I've had more of 97 00:04:21,530 --> 00:04:18,660 an impact on my students or more of an 98 00:04:23,330 --> 00:04:21,540 impact on my readers but um either way 99 00:04:25,610 --> 00:04:23,340 it's been it's been a good life it's 100 00:04:28,010 --> 00:04:25,620 been a rewarding career and thank you 101 00:04:31,490 --> 00:04:28,020 for uh pointing out my successes 102 00:04:35,930 --> 00:04:31,500 whatever limited though they may be well 103 00:04:38,270 --> 00:04:35,940 I have a couple of uh kids still left in 104 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:38,280 college right now and maybe that's why 105 00:04:42,830 --> 00:04:40,560 I'm a specially tuned into 106 00:04:44,030 --> 00:04:42,840 the fact that you fought the good fight 107 00:04:47,270 --> 00:04:44,040 because 108 00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:47,280 I just know that the lives of those 109 00:04:52,010 --> 00:04:49,440 students that you've touched you'll 110 00:04:54,290 --> 00:04:52,020 never know you know it's it's just kind 111 00:04:56,749 --> 00:04:54,300 of the parent you'll never know you had 112 00:04:58,610 --> 00:04:56,759 the impact but college students are not 113 00:05:00,830 --> 00:04:58,620 the ones at that time who are going to 114 00:05:03,230 --> 00:05:00,840 stand up and say wow this is great it's 115 00:05:05,330 --> 00:05:03,240 10 years later when the little chicken 116 00:05:07,010 --> 00:05:05,340 goes off but you know the question I 117 00:05:08,030 --> 00:05:07,020 want to ask because it's kind of one of 118 00:05:10,070 --> 00:05:08,040 my 119 00:05:12,469 --> 00:05:10,080 I just I've just run across this so many 120 00:05:14,050 --> 00:05:12,479 times I've interviewed so many uh 121 00:05:17,629 --> 00:05:14,060 religious studies 122 00:05:19,249 --> 00:05:17,639 folks on the show it's usually in a 123 00:05:22,189 --> 00:05:19,259 different way because they're kind of 124 00:05:24,350 --> 00:05:22,199 not really in my opinion engaging with 125 00:05:26,810 --> 00:05:24,360 the data and I'm kind of forcing that 126 00:05:29,029 --> 00:05:26,820 engagement with the data but what is it 127 00:05:34,090 --> 00:05:29,039 what was it like we're both Californians 128 00:05:37,909 --> 00:05:34,100 what was it like going through the CSU 129 00:05:40,070 --> 00:05:37,919 system and doing what you did I gotta 130 00:05:42,110 --> 00:05:40,080 imagine that was like you had to strap 131 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:42,120 the armor on every day for that didn't 132 00:05:46,249 --> 00:05:43,340 you 133 00:05:47,870 --> 00:05:46,259 what happens um is that I would never I 134 00:05:49,909 --> 00:05:47,880 was very lucky because I didn't get into 135 00:05:52,249 --> 00:05:49,919 this afterlife research until I was a 136 00:05:54,469 --> 00:05:52,259 full Professor all right if I had gotten 137 00:05:56,270 --> 00:05:54,479 into it earlier I don't think I would 138 00:05:58,670 --> 00:05:56,280 have ever been promoted I don't know 139 00:06:01,370 --> 00:05:58,680 that I ever would have been retained but 140 00:06:04,490 --> 00:06:01,380 you know I had tenure I was a full 141 00:06:06,290 --> 00:06:04,500 Professor I was being paid top grade for 142 00:06:09,350 --> 00:06:06,300 a religious studies Professor which is 143 00:06:12,529 --> 00:06:09,360 not quite business but uh and and I was 144 00:06:14,390 --> 00:06:12,539 Untouchable and so I was getting away 145 00:06:16,670 --> 00:06:14,400 with things that a younger Professor 146 00:06:19,730 --> 00:06:16,680 wouldn't dare to even try to get away 147 00:06:22,969 --> 00:06:19,740 with namely to prevent to present 148 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:22,979 evidence for a spiritual world for 149 00:06:27,710 --> 00:06:25,020 Spiritual realities 150 00:06:29,930 --> 00:06:27,720 um that um even in religious studies 151 00:06:31,309 --> 00:06:29,940 departments are frowned upon because in 152 00:06:33,710 --> 00:06:31,319 religious studies departments what 153 00:06:36,469 --> 00:06:33,720 you're supposed to do is to teach what 154 00:06:39,529 --> 00:06:36,479 religions say about things you're not 155 00:06:42,469 --> 00:06:39,539 asked to say or to engage in the kind of 156 00:06:45,170 --> 00:06:42,479 research that says but is it true what 157 00:06:46,670 --> 00:06:45,180 these religions are saying okay that's a 158 00:06:49,129 --> 00:06:46,680 philosophical question and that's what 159 00:06:51,409 --> 00:06:49,139 interested me far more than what maybe 160 00:06:53,150 --> 00:06:51,419 Hindus or Jews or Christians had to say 161 00:06:55,309 --> 00:06:53,160 about the afterlife I wanted to know if 162 00:06:57,350 --> 00:06:55,319 there was an afterlife and that's what 163 00:06:59,210 --> 00:06:57,360 got me moving in the direction of my 164 00:07:00,890 --> 00:06:59,220 research and all the books that I've 165 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:00,900 written ever since and that's what 166 00:07:07,490 --> 00:07:03,360 interests you too Alex you know the big 167 00:07:10,550 --> 00:07:07,500 questions is there an alkaline and what 168 00:07:13,370 --> 00:07:10,560 follows from that recognition and is it 169 00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:13,380 scientific to speak of such a thing as 170 00:07:17,450 --> 00:07:15,960 an afterlife I think it is I think as a 171 00:07:19,790 --> 00:07:17,460 matter of fact most people who consider 172 00:07:21,050 --> 00:07:19,800 themselves scientists are not really 173 00:07:23,450 --> 00:07:21,060 because they don't even look at the 174 00:07:25,550 --> 00:07:23,460 evidence a scientist is going to look at 175 00:07:27,770 --> 00:07:25,560 evidence from everywhere and most 176 00:07:30,589 --> 00:07:27,780 scientists when they come across a book 177 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:30,599 like mine they just that's just that's 178 00:07:35,629 --> 00:07:34,440 just nonsense that's pseudoscience uh 179 00:07:37,730 --> 00:07:35,639 and so I've had to deal with that 180 00:07:39,790 --> 00:07:37,740 attitude all my life or at least for the 181 00:07:42,350 --> 00:07:39,800 last 20 years 182 00:07:44,749 --> 00:07:42,360 how did you get started what is a little 183 00:07:47,870 --> 00:07:44,759 bit more on on your background early on 184 00:07:51,050 --> 00:07:47,880 and and how did you come to 185 00:07:52,309 --> 00:07:51,060 be interested in this stuff in the first 186 00:07:54,770 --> 00:07:52,319 place 187 00:07:57,650 --> 00:07:54,780 well I was raised at Roman Catholic 188 00:08:01,010 --> 00:07:57,660 um and I was a very religious spiritual 189 00:08:04,129 --> 00:08:01,020 type of kid and then that's really got 190 00:08:06,950 --> 00:08:04,139 me to think by the time I was 10 I was 191 00:08:09,290 --> 00:08:06,960 wondering you know what is purgatory 192 00:08:12,050 --> 00:08:09,300 really like I was sort of horrified at 193 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:12,060 the descriptions that were given and I 194 00:08:16,010 --> 00:08:14,340 worried about the afterlife and what it 195 00:08:17,689 --> 00:08:16,020 meant I worried a lot about it as a 196 00:08:19,969 --> 00:08:17,699 matter of fact and it kept me quite 197 00:08:21,710 --> 00:08:19,979 chaste for many many years right on 198 00:08:23,330 --> 00:08:21,720 through high school it's probably the 199 00:08:24,950 --> 00:08:23,340 latest version you'll ever get to know 200 00:08:27,409 --> 00:08:24,960 you know 201 00:08:30,650 --> 00:08:27,419 um and then of course it all fell apart 202 00:08:32,329 --> 00:08:30,660 I realized that um that the Catholicism 203 00:08:34,610 --> 00:08:32,339 did not have the answers that I was 204 00:08:37,070 --> 00:08:34,620 looking for it got a few things right 205 00:08:39,709 --> 00:08:37,080 and I'm not unhappy about the way I was 206 00:08:41,510 --> 00:08:39,719 brought up but by the time I was 25 and 207 00:08:44,810 --> 00:08:41,520 came back from Vietnam and read Bertrand 208 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:44,820 Russell I was done I had lost my faith I 209 00:08:49,130 --> 00:08:46,920 didn't believe in God anymore I was very 210 00:08:50,750 --> 00:08:49,140 troubled that there might not be any 211 00:08:53,870 --> 00:08:50,760 evidence for God 212 00:08:56,870 --> 00:08:53,880 or for an afterlife very troubled by 213 00:08:58,310 --> 00:08:56,880 that uh and and I decided to go to 214 00:09:00,350 --> 00:08:58,320 Fordham to see if there were any answers 215 00:09:02,990 --> 00:09:00,360 that I could get from you know the 216 00:09:05,829 --> 00:09:03,000 professionals and that's when I really 217 00:09:08,810 --> 00:09:05,839 began to grow spiritually and uh 218 00:09:11,269 --> 00:09:08,820 academically uh and intellectually I 219 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:11,279 began to study the religions of the east 220 00:09:15,410 --> 00:09:13,380 of India in particular Hinduism and 221 00:09:17,690 --> 00:09:15,420 Buddhism I found different kinds of 222 00:09:20,030 --> 00:09:17,700 answers began to suspect that there was 223 00:09:22,250 --> 00:09:20,040 something about these religions that 224 00:09:24,550 --> 00:09:22,260 were good and that they had that they 225 00:09:27,170 --> 00:09:24,560 got it right okay but it wasn't until 226 00:09:30,530 --> 00:09:27,180 1975 when I came across that wonderful 227 00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:30,540 book uh Life After Life by Raymond Moody 228 00:09:35,690 --> 00:09:32,760 uh about the near-death experience that 229 00:09:38,150 --> 00:09:35,700 I began to see my faith begin to 230 00:09:39,769 --> 00:09:38,160 reassemble itself that was critical for 231 00:09:42,590 --> 00:09:39,779 me because I realized that there was 232 00:09:45,710 --> 00:09:42,600 scientific evidence for an afterlife and 233 00:09:47,690 --> 00:09:45,720 even uh there was evidence suggesting 234 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:47,700 that there was some higher being of 235 00:09:52,970 --> 00:09:50,040 light some transcendental being that 236 00:09:55,490 --> 00:09:52,980 these uh near-death experiences we're 237 00:09:59,030 --> 00:09:55,500 we're making contact with and that was 238 00:10:02,150 --> 00:09:59,040 the beginning of my later research I got 239 00:10:03,769 --> 00:10:02,160 away from all of the necessary articles 240 00:10:06,530 --> 00:10:03,779 that I had to publish in order to get 241 00:10:09,889 --> 00:10:06,540 promoted uh began to do what was really 242 00:10:11,690 --> 00:10:09,899 interesting to me and that was what I 243 00:10:13,310 --> 00:10:11,700 have written these books about about the 244 00:10:15,889 --> 00:10:13,320 afterlife about what it's really like 245 00:10:18,170 --> 00:10:15,899 what the evidence for it is so that's 246 00:10:20,329 --> 00:10:18,180 that's a quick background Alex 247 00:10:22,670 --> 00:10:20,339 that's fantastic I'm glad you went 248 00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:22,680 through that I'm particularly interested 249 00:10:29,170 --> 00:10:26,760 in two parts of that one I I think the 250 00:10:32,570 --> 00:10:29,180 the near-death experience science part 251 00:10:35,889 --> 00:10:32,580 from anyone who pays attention it's a 252 00:10:41,930 --> 00:10:35,899 game changer it was for me 253 00:10:45,230 --> 00:10:41,940 it was and but I I I always pause why in 254 00:10:48,110 --> 00:10:45,240 trying to understand why it isn't that 255 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:48,120 way for more people and in particular I 256 00:10:56,269 --> 00:10:53,160 guess I'd go back to you in the academic 257 00:11:00,230 --> 00:10:56,279 world you know the resistance that you 258 00:11:01,910 --> 00:11:00,240 face and then uh we'll talk about that 259 00:11:05,090 --> 00:11:01,920 but then you know I told you in the 260 00:11:07,310 --> 00:11:05,100 email like uh your books are fantastic 261 00:11:10,130 --> 00:11:07,320 and for my audience 262 00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,140 they get it uh they get what you're 263 00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:12,480 writing about and they're going to want 264 00:11:18,230 --> 00:11:15,360 to go revisit those books as a way for 265 00:11:21,710 --> 00:11:18,240 further understanding and explaining to 266 00:11:25,310 --> 00:11:21,720 other people what the evidence is in a 267 00:11:27,470 --> 00:11:25,320 very well written way I'm also 268 00:11:29,150 --> 00:11:27,480 interested at the same time in this kind 269 00:11:30,650 --> 00:11:29,160 of larger process and like I tell you 270 00:11:34,009 --> 00:11:30,660 level two and level three you know level 271 00:11:38,210 --> 00:11:34,019 one is the data your books but level two 272 00:11:40,970 --> 00:11:38,220 is the deception and to me 273 00:11:42,590 --> 00:11:40,980 there's two ways to understand what you 274 00:11:45,889 --> 00:11:42,600 faced at 275 00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:45,899 the California state Berkeley is one is 276 00:11:49,850 --> 00:11:48,000 just people are closed-minded don't like 277 00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:49,860 to change their opinion you know it's 278 00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,279 the Thomas you know uh one funeral 279 00:11:57,470 --> 00:11:55,920 at a time kind of thing but why is that 280 00:11:59,030 --> 00:11:57,480 why what let me just start with that 281 00:12:03,230 --> 00:11:59,040 first question and not Babble on too 282 00:12:05,449 --> 00:12:03,240 much why does Stafford see this and 283 00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:05,459 immediately go I need to investigate 284 00:12:09,410 --> 00:12:07,560 this this would change everything I need 285 00:12:10,790 --> 00:12:09,420 to investigate this and I just will add 286 00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:10,800 you you know who else I found like that 287 00:12:16,009 --> 00:12:13,500 like all the really legit super smart 288 00:12:19,670 --> 00:12:16,019 people that I respect like uh Dr Jeffrey 289 00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:19,680 long same thing right he's going through 290 00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:22,800 he's going into his medical practice uh 291 00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:25,620 he runs across these cases of people 292 00:12:30,590 --> 00:12:28,560 having near-death experiences on the 293 00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:30,600 table report to the doctor the doctor 294 00:12:33,650 --> 00:12:32,339 has to write it down in the journal and 295 00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:33,660 say I don't know what happened here but 296 00:12:37,670 --> 00:12:35,700 this is unexplainable and he goes man I 297 00:12:39,710 --> 00:12:37,680 gotta investigate this and he brings it 298 00:12:41,389 --> 00:12:39,720 up to his colleagues in his colleague I 299 00:12:43,009 --> 00:12:41,399 ain't touching that I want to get I want 300 00:12:45,290 --> 00:12:43,019 to get my career around I want to do all 301 00:12:49,069 --> 00:12:45,300 the rest is done what what is it about 302 00:12:51,889 --> 00:12:49,079 you that made you feel like this is 303 00:12:54,769 --> 00:12:51,899 something that I can't just forget about 304 00:12:56,930 --> 00:12:54,779 and go on with my life you know uh 305 00:12:58,970 --> 00:12:56,940 that's a good question it makes me 306 00:13:03,170 --> 00:12:58,980 wonder if there was something in my 307 00:13:05,389 --> 00:13:03,180 previous life that um but you might say 308 00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:05,399 catapulted me in this direction I really 309 00:13:09,590 --> 00:13:07,200 don't know that's a mysterious question 310 00:13:12,470 --> 00:13:09,600 but I'm certainly my interests are not 311 00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,480 those of my high school buddies 312 00:13:16,670 --> 00:13:14,639 um not at all uh I mean with a few 313 00:13:19,009 --> 00:13:16,680 exceptions 314 00:13:21,110 --> 00:13:19,019 um it's easier I mean it's it's more 315 00:13:25,129 --> 00:13:21,120 mysterious to answer the question in the 316 00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,139 other way why aren't people who are in 317 00:13:29,710 --> 00:13:27,360 high school and are you know beginning 318 00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:29,720 to question things and beginning to 319 00:13:35,930 --> 00:13:33,360 religion I don't know about that why do 320 00:13:38,269 --> 00:13:35,940 they just jettison the whole thing throw 321 00:13:39,949 --> 00:13:38,279 the baby out with the bath water and 322 00:13:41,810 --> 00:13:39,959 just get on with life without even 323 00:13:42,889 --> 00:13:41,820 thinking about the implications of what 324 00:13:45,590 --> 00:13:42,899 they've done 325 00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,600 that is strange but I'll tell you what a 326 00:13:51,230 --> 00:13:48,000 large part has to do with they are made 327 00:13:52,490 --> 00:13:51,240 to feel by their teachers 328 00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:52,500 um 329 00:13:58,910 --> 00:13:55,260 and by others who have had an impact on 330 00:14:01,550 --> 00:13:58,920 their lives that it is simply smart to 331 00:14:03,829 --> 00:14:01,560 stand with those scientists it's just 332 00:14:06,170 --> 00:14:03,839 smart all right and these scientists are 333 00:14:09,470 --> 00:14:06,180 telling the world that you know religion 334 00:14:11,629 --> 00:14:09,480 is ah yes or it's for it's for you might 335 00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:11,639 say weak people or maybe it's better for 336 00:14:16,730 --> 00:14:13,620 women than for men these kinds of 337 00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:16,740 prejudice are are being heard and and 338 00:14:21,710 --> 00:14:19,920 and you know a smart 17 year old is just 339 00:14:23,449 --> 00:14:21,720 going to be seduced by this way of 340 00:14:25,790 --> 00:14:23,459 thinking they want to be thought of as 341 00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:25,800 smart and so they dump their religion 342 00:14:29,810 --> 00:14:28,560 and often for very good reasons 343 00:14:31,550 --> 00:14:29,820 um their religions have been very 344 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:31,560 disappointing 345 00:14:37,069 --> 00:14:34,260 um Christianity for example has many 346 00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:37,079 strange dogmas that really don't fit a 347 00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:39,600 scientific worldview at all 348 00:14:46,129 --> 00:14:42,060 um and and so they just decide that 349 00:14:48,470 --> 00:14:46,139 religion is just not true and so they 350 00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:48,480 throw the the baby out which is the 351 00:14:54,410 --> 00:14:51,360 afterlife which they think of as being a 352 00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:54,420 religious doctor print rather than a 353 00:14:59,090 --> 00:14:57,360 scientifically supported Doctrine they 354 00:15:01,970 --> 00:14:59,100 just throw it out because it's part of 355 00:15:04,910 --> 00:15:01,980 religion and they might miss the thought 356 00:15:06,829 --> 00:15:04,920 of an afterlife but not enough to worry 357 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:06,839 about it any further doing any reading 358 00:15:10,490 --> 00:15:08,880 about it to even be curious about than 359 00:15:13,310 --> 00:15:10,500 your death experience that they may have 360 00:15:16,189 --> 00:15:13,320 heard of but you know they've simply 361 00:15:18,829 --> 00:15:16,199 been seduced and they have learned to be 362 00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:18,839 comfortable with their pessimistic 363 00:15:22,790 --> 00:15:20,160 worldview 364 00:15:25,490 --> 00:15:22,800 with their hopeless view of what happens 365 00:15:28,069 --> 00:15:25,500 at death with all of the bleakness that 366 00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:28,079 that uh that that that that implies and 367 00:15:32,269 --> 00:15:29,820 they basically sacrifice a lot of 368 00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:32,279 happiness that comes with a more 369 00:15:37,970 --> 00:15:34,620 optimistic world view because they've 370 00:15:40,370 --> 00:15:37,980 been just sucked into this supposedly 371 00:15:42,050 --> 00:15:40,380 scientific world view where the smart 372 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:42,060 people hang out 373 00:15:47,509 --> 00:15:45,480 I'm an econoclast and contrary and in 374 00:15:49,189 --> 00:15:47,519 that way too and it's like it seems 375 00:15:50,629 --> 00:15:49,199 obvious you know like who are the what 376 00:15:53,150 --> 00:15:50,639 are the big picture questions who am I 377 00:15:54,769 --> 00:15:53,160 why am I here so why do I want to uh 378 00:15:57,230 --> 00:15:54,779 settle on that but I think the way that 379 00:15:59,110 --> 00:15:57,240 you phrased it is different than I've 380 00:16:02,629 --> 00:15:59,120 heard and I think it's very very 381 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:02,639 compelling as a possible explanation it 382 00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:04,500 will never be explored because no one 383 00:16:08,449 --> 00:16:06,420 wants to really go there in terms of 384 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:08,459 feeling like maybe we have all been 385 00:16:12,470 --> 00:16:11,040 duped in that way and maybe culture and 386 00:16:15,290 --> 00:16:12,480 there's but there's some questions there 387 00:16:17,629 --> 00:16:15,300 that I really want to I want to dive 388 00:16:19,790 --> 00:16:17,639 into and you kind of made it two 389 00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:19,800 questions I just had one and now you've 390 00:16:24,170 --> 00:16:21,839 kind of divided it but the first 391 00:16:27,230 --> 00:16:24,180 question is you know what really kind of 392 00:16:29,569 --> 00:16:27,240 changed things for me is when I started 393 00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:29,579 understanding some of the more secret 394 00:16:35,269 --> 00:16:32,220 black budget that then our exposed 395 00:16:38,449 --> 00:16:35,279 programs that were being run about 396 00:16:40,850 --> 00:16:38,459 Consciousness in the 50s in the 60s in 397 00:16:43,910 --> 00:16:40,860 the 70s oh yeah and it's clear from 398 00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:43,920 these programs that they had no 399 00:16:49,490 --> 00:16:47,040 illusions of this Consciousness is an 400 00:16:52,069 --> 00:16:49,500 illusion you're a biological robot in a 401 00:16:53,629 --> 00:16:52,079 meaningless Universe this nihilism that 402 00:16:55,610 --> 00:16:53,639 you're talking about they were way past 403 00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:55,620 that right they were looking they 404 00:16:59,569 --> 00:16:57,360 presupposed that there were these 405 00:17:02,090 --> 00:16:59,579 extended Realms they even did things 406 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:02,100 like try to you know reach the Demonic 407 00:17:06,169 --> 00:17:04,079 realm can we do that can we weaponize 408 00:17:09,530 --> 00:17:06,179 that they were certainly doing remote 409 00:17:13,390 --> 00:17:09,540 viewing which is a complete end run on 410 00:17:15,890 --> 00:17:13,400 materialism so to me it's almost 411 00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:15,900 impossible for me to see that as 412 00:17:20,449 --> 00:17:18,660 anything other than a social engineering 413 00:17:22,549 --> 00:17:20,459 project which is to kind of take 414 00:17:25,789 --> 00:17:22,559 Academia and say okay we want you to 415 00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,799 continue to run with this meme this 416 00:17:29,390 --> 00:17:28,079 narrative tell people that they're a 417 00:17:32,330 --> 00:17:29,400 biological robot in a meaningless 418 00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:32,340 Universe because that has some 419 00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:34,799 advantages to us like you just described 420 00:17:40,010 --> 00:17:37,200 mainly it makes people more 421 00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:40,020 just kind of manageable they're kind of 422 00:17:43,970 --> 00:17:41,940 lost they're kind of known so they just 423 00:17:46,549 --> 00:17:43,980 kind of we kind of hurt them more easily 424 00:17:49,010 --> 00:17:46,559 but the what do you think about that 425 00:17:52,190 --> 00:17:49,020 isn't that isn't that an important point 426 00:17:56,270 --> 00:17:52,200 that they weren't uh the The Cutting 427 00:17:59,890 --> 00:17:56,280 Edge inside the big machine wasn't at 428 00:18:03,710 --> 00:17:59,900 all even contemplating this uh 429 00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:03,720 materialism this there's no extended 430 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:06,480 realm there's no afterlife you know I'll 431 00:18:10,250 --> 00:18:08,580 just put a Capstone on that I might edit 432 00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:10,260 this out because I told the story so 433 00:18:16,490 --> 00:18:13,440 many times but have you ever heard of a 434 00:18:19,909 --> 00:18:16,500 guy named Joe mcmonagle 435 00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:19,919 German Monaco you know I don't think so 436 00:18:25,789 --> 00:18:23,100 he was a he was a remote viewer for the 437 00:18:28,130 --> 00:18:25,799 Stargate program he was remote viewer a 438 00:18:30,770 --> 00:18:28,140 secret spy number zero zero zero but 439 00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:30,780 here's his story he was actually a real 440 00:18:35,090 --> 00:18:33,840 spy East Germany West Germany he was on 441 00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:35,100 the border there he's working for the 442 00:18:41,870 --> 00:18:38,640 Army and he has a Stafford he has an nde 443 00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:41,880 in a restaurant in right on the East 444 00:18:46,310 --> 00:18:43,440 German West German border he was 445 00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:46,320 poisoned by the East Germans so he dies 446 00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:48,799 and he's stumbling out of the restaurant 447 00:18:53,750 --> 00:18:51,660 and his buddies grab him and they throw 448 00:18:57,049 --> 00:18:53,760 him in a Jeep and boom he's outside of 449 00:18:59,049 --> 00:18:57,059 his body and he's looking down and you 450 00:19:01,850 --> 00:18:59,059 know the whole thing the ambulance 451 00:19:05,150 --> 00:19:01,860 he has a full-blown near-death 452 00:19:08,690 --> 00:19:05,160 experience goes and visits the afterlife 453 00:19:11,690 --> 00:19:08,700 has a remarkable spiritually 454 00:19:14,690 --> 00:19:11,700 transformative experience he wakes up 455 00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:14,700 and there are his got his handlers you 456 00:19:19,190 --> 00:19:17,039 know the Spy hands you know okay what 457 00:19:20,630 --> 00:19:19,200 happened you know and he goes he was 458 00:19:21,710 --> 00:19:20,640 afraid to tell him what happened you 459 00:19:23,210 --> 00:19:21,720 know because they wanted to know what 460 00:19:24,890 --> 00:19:23,220 happened in terms of how did you get 461 00:19:27,110 --> 00:19:24,900 poisoned what were you working on and 462 00:19:29,150 --> 00:19:27,120 he's like I just had most profound 463 00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:29,160 experience in my life so that's kind of 464 00:19:35,930 --> 00:19:32,640 what's happening for me but fast forward 465 00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:35,940 he goes on in his army career and now 466 00:19:42,650 --> 00:19:41,280 he's tapped to do this uh psychic spying 467 00:19:46,010 --> 00:19:42,660 thing where they put these guys in a 468 00:19:49,549 --> 00:19:46,020 room and say go look in Russia and see 469 00:19:52,610 --> 00:19:49,559 if you can see the subs by your mind but 470 00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,620 in his job interview he said is either 471 00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,720 Russell targ or how put off I forget who 472 00:19:59,630 --> 00:19:56,880 is interviewing they pull out they 473 00:20:03,169 --> 00:19:59,640 unseal his secret file and they pull out 474 00:20:05,630 --> 00:20:03,179 what Raymond Moody's book they pull out 475 00:20:08,930 --> 00:20:05,640 Raymond Moody's book a near-death 476 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:08,940 experience and what that means to me is 477 00:20:15,049 --> 00:20:12,660 these guys were already tapped into the 478 00:20:18,110 --> 00:20:15,059 fact that there is this extended realm 479 00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,120 there is this afterlife of course and 480 00:20:22,669 --> 00:20:20,400 they didn't know how it plays in with 481 00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:22,679 the Demonic part they didn't know how it 482 00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,140 played in with the ESP part but they 483 00:20:31,370 --> 00:20:27,919 were they were not they were way past 484 00:20:34,010 --> 00:20:31,380 what's all the professors in the 485 00:20:36,110 --> 00:20:34,020 religious department at you know Cal 486 00:20:37,850 --> 00:20:36,120 State Department at the philosophy 487 00:20:39,950 --> 00:20:37,860 Department yeah they're they're not 488 00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:39,960 they're not they're not even considering 489 00:20:45,110 --> 00:20:42,240 that so it's a game it's a game let's 490 00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:45,120 have Academia keep peddling this 491 00:20:50,810 --> 00:20:47,460 nihilism so we can go off and 492 00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:50,820 investigate what's really going on in 493 00:20:55,610 --> 00:20:52,860 these extended Realms what do you think 494 00:20:58,490 --> 00:20:55,620 about all that well why would I don't 495 00:21:00,590 --> 00:20:58,500 know what the motive would would be 496 00:21:06,289 --> 00:21:03,169 in other words wouldn't it be better if 497 00:21:09,650 --> 00:21:06,299 uh if these more enlightened individuals 498 00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:09,660 could could could reach uh Academia and 499 00:21:14,330 --> 00:21:12,000 begin to convert professors of 500 00:21:15,710 --> 00:21:14,340 philosophy and science to bring them 501 00:21:18,289 --> 00:21:15,720 around to 502 00:21:20,270 --> 00:21:18,299 um a more spiritual more enlightened 503 00:21:21,950 --> 00:21:20,280 worldview wouldn't it be better to work 504 00:21:24,350 --> 00:21:21,960 with them rather than you know working 505 00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:24,360 around them it seems to me that you're 506 00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:27,200 suggesting that um that's what they do 507 00:21:33,890 --> 00:21:31,500 they don't want to be working alongside 508 00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,900 of academics they simply want to do 509 00:21:38,090 --> 00:21:35,760 their thing and let these silly 510 00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:38,100 academics do their thing 511 00:21:41,570 --> 00:21:39,960 uh is that what you're saying uh Alex 512 00:21:43,669 --> 00:21:41,580 I'm not sure I'm following you there 513 00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:43,679 well I think that's where they that's 514 00:21:51,169 --> 00:21:47,280 where the evidence to me clearly clearly 515 00:21:53,570 --> 00:21:51,179 Falls because again I mean what we know 516 00:21:56,330 --> 00:21:53,580 is that like there's another you've 517 00:21:59,510 --> 00:21:56,340 heard of MK Ultra right 518 00:22:02,810 --> 00:21:59,520 uh no oh I don't keep up with these 519 00:22:04,370 --> 00:22:02,820 movements well MK Ultra was the 520 00:22:05,810 --> 00:22:04,380 classified but then they released a 521 00:22:08,270 --> 00:22:05,820 bunch of documents on it on the Mind 522 00:22:10,789 --> 00:22:08,280 controls stuff that they were doing so 523 00:22:13,310 --> 00:22:10,799 they were giving people LSD without them 524 00:22:15,230 --> 00:22:13,320 knowing it they were also doing like the 525 00:22:17,630 --> 00:22:15,240 remote viewing and and that stuff has 526 00:22:19,070 --> 00:22:17,640 come out it there's there were lawsuits 527 00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:19,080 Freedom of Information but they were 528 00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,940 doing horrible things the other thing 529 00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:23,039 they were doing another project MK often 530 00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:25,500 they were actually trying to 531 00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:28,500 connect with demonic beings and they 532 00:22:32,810 --> 00:22:29,960 were like well let's go get 533 00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:32,820 demonologists and see if you can bring 534 00:22:39,110 --> 00:22:35,820 forth you know those spirits and it was 535 00:22:42,230 --> 00:22:39,120 all under the guise of well if we don't 536 00:22:45,710 --> 00:22:42,240 do it the Russians will do it uh you 537 00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:45,720 want the Russians to be managing Satan 538 00:22:50,990 --> 00:22:47,940 or do you want to manage Satan yeah I 539 00:22:54,230 --> 00:22:51,000 mean it is this military kind of view of 540 00:22:56,750 --> 00:22:54,240 things that can kind of justify anything 541 00:22:59,210 --> 00:22:56,760 and and weaponize anything and we were 542 00:23:02,390 --> 00:22:59,220 also we're also concerned because in the 543 00:23:04,850 --> 00:23:02,400 the Korean War you know we were we were 544 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:04,860 like wow our our kids are being 545 00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:08,100 brainwashed you know our kids are being 546 00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:10,500 brainwashed and look at what these 547 00:23:13,430 --> 00:23:12,000 soldiers are doing and we even after 548 00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:13,440 World War II or like these Japanese 549 00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:16,080 they're like robots they're brainwashed 550 00:23:20,570 --> 00:23:18,179 so we got to be able to brainwash our 551 00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:20,580 own soldiers or see and all this was 552 00:23:28,310 --> 00:23:24,480 just the the the milieu in which it was 553 00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:28,320 seemed smart to look at what's going on 554 00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:30,740 in the mind and that led them to this 555 00:23:37,610 --> 00:23:34,200 extended Consciousness kind of thing and 556 00:23:39,710 --> 00:23:37,620 this interest in the afterlife but and 557 00:23:42,289 --> 00:23:39,720 then inside the government then there's 558 00:23:44,149 --> 00:23:42,299 also this Christian faction who is like 559 00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:44,159 the Christian faction if you talk to the 560 00:23:49,310 --> 00:23:47,039 guys who did the Stargate program the 561 00:23:51,409 --> 00:23:49,320 remote viewing program okay like you 562 00:23:53,570 --> 00:23:51,419 talked to Joe mcmonagle what he'll say 563 00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,580 is hey part of the reason we got shut 564 00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:55,919 down is because some right-wing 565 00:24:01,070 --> 00:23:58,559 Conservative Christian 566 00:24:02,750 --> 00:24:01,080 Congress folks got in there and said oh 567 00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:02,760 my God shut this down this is all 568 00:24:09,230 --> 00:24:05,760 demonic and now you have the people 569 00:24:12,110 --> 00:24:09,240 inside that program saying you you can't 570 00:24:14,330 --> 00:24:12,120 just be like black or white you know we 571 00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:14,340 have to figure out what's going on here 572 00:24:19,669 --> 00:24:16,260 before we just shut the whole thing down 573 00:24:21,770 --> 00:24:19,679 and call it demonic but I don't know do 574 00:24:23,450 --> 00:24:21,780 you shut the whole thing down and call 575 00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:23,460 it demonic but if you're not familiar 576 00:24:28,310 --> 00:24:26,400 with with any of that then this kind of 577 00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:28,320 is a conversation that doesn't doesn't 578 00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:29,940 really get so far but that is our 579 00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:32,400 history that's what we've done so I'm 580 00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:34,140 making the leap in saying that that is a 581 00:24:39,830 --> 00:24:35,760 possible explanation for why you have 582 00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:39,840 this incredibly illogical divide among 583 00:24:45,409 --> 00:24:44,100 uh among Academia and interesting I 584 00:24:48,770 --> 00:24:45,419 never would have thought of that I 585 00:24:50,630 --> 00:24:48,780 always thought that um but I had a a 586 00:24:53,930 --> 00:24:50,640 good understanding of what was happening 587 00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,940 around me and and to me so this is this 588 00:24:57,890 --> 00:24:55,200 is something that I had to think about 589 00:25:01,970 --> 00:24:57,900 it does sound to me though that these 590 00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:01,980 folks were in many cases uh doing the 591 00:25:05,210 --> 00:25:03,900 right thing for the wrong reason 592 00:25:08,210 --> 00:25:05,220 um 593 00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:08,220 but anyway uh but this is what do you 594 00:25:12,230 --> 00:25:10,500 mean what do you mean by that uh it 595 00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:12,240 seems to me 596 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:14,400 you know what I should put this around 597 00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:16,260 they're doing the wrong thing for the 598 00:25:23,810 --> 00:25:20,760 right reason they uh they subjected uh 599 00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:23,820 they started out idealistically wanting 600 00:25:28,190 --> 00:25:26,580 to uh look into such things as 601 00:25:30,230 --> 00:25:28,200 demonology which is something worth 602 00:25:32,930 --> 00:25:30,240 looking into in my opinion I've looked 603 00:25:36,289 --> 00:25:32,940 into it but then it became something 604 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:36,299 malevolent uh as it developed 605 00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:36,980 um 606 00:25:43,909 --> 00:25:41,940 and so as I now right because it seems 607 00:25:46,669 --> 00:25:43,919 to me that they were doing the right 608 00:25:48,769 --> 00:25:46,679 thing for the uh the wrong thing not I'm 609 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:48,779 confused about that actually how to put 610 00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:50,820 this but you might correct me on this 611 00:25:56,570 --> 00:25:55,440 Alex I I um I uh I I don't see the 612 00:26:00,950 --> 00:25:56,580 connection 613 00:26:04,010 --> 00:26:00,960 movement which has apparently been shut 614 00:26:06,950 --> 00:26:04,020 down now completely uh with oh it's not 615 00:26:09,590 --> 00:26:06,960 shut down okay so the the Congress the 616 00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:09,600 the Christian Congress people did not 617 00:26:12,529 --> 00:26:11,100 get their way they wanted to shut it 618 00:26:14,810 --> 00:26:12,539 down but they didn't succeed is that 619 00:26:17,390 --> 00:26:14,820 what you're saying well we'll never 620 00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:17,400 we'll never know but history would 621 00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:19,140 suggest that 622 00:26:24,289 --> 00:26:21,840 black programs like that are never shut 623 00:26:26,210 --> 00:26:24,299 down they're just you know they play the 624 00:26:27,769 --> 00:26:26,220 shell game you know I'll I'll kind of 625 00:26:30,710 --> 00:26:27,779 Bring It Well closer to home you know 626 00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:30,720 you wrote an article uh I think for 627 00:26:35,269 --> 00:26:32,760 bakersfield.com 628 00:26:38,630 --> 00:26:35,279 a few years ago when Charles Manson 629 00:26:40,250 --> 00:26:38,640 right yeah right oh yeah and it was 630 00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,260 interesting because it was like the the 631 00:26:46,430 --> 00:26:42,240 you know it was Charlie Manson going to 632 00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:46,440 heaven I I tell you know Google 633 00:26:52,450 --> 00:26:48,720 Google right now I'll pause and I'll cut 634 00:26:57,289 --> 00:26:52,460 it out you know was uh Charles Manson 635 00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:57,299 part of the MK Ultra program oh my gosh 636 00:27:02,870 --> 00:27:00,600 he was what he was yeah so they were 637 00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,880 giving him an LSD they were and then 638 00:27:06,769 --> 00:27:04,320 there's this other program that came out 639 00:27:09,529 --> 00:27:06,779 sub project uh 39 where they were going 640 00:27:12,169 --> 00:27:09,539 into the Michigan prison system and 641 00:27:15,230 --> 00:27:12,179 getting serial killers and seeing if 642 00:27:17,630 --> 00:27:15,240 they could mind control and weaponize 643 00:27:19,370 --> 00:27:17,640 and again all this stuff 644 00:27:21,110 --> 00:27:19,380 if you think about it from one 645 00:27:23,810 --> 00:27:21,120 perspective 646 00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,820 you think about okay 647 00:27:29,149 --> 00:27:25,440 would you 648 00:27:31,070 --> 00:27:29,159 do you want your government looking into 649 00:27:33,169 --> 00:27:31,080 demonology 650 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:33,179 this is back to your point and the so 651 00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:34,620 your first reaction would be like hell 652 00:27:38,750 --> 00:27:36,960 no I don't want them you know summoning 653 00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:38,760 demons and doing the rest of this stuff 654 00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:41,279 but then just like you did you look 655 00:27:46,250 --> 00:27:43,020 through it further and you go well 656 00:27:48,409 --> 00:27:46,260 do I want them not looking I mean do I 657 00:27:50,990 --> 00:27:48,419 don't I want them to kind of know if 658 00:27:54,049 --> 00:27:51,000 their job is to protect me don't I want 659 00:27:56,630 --> 00:27:54,059 them to know as much as they can about 660 00:27:59,090 --> 00:27:56,640 how we should come down on that if it's 661 00:28:02,630 --> 00:27:59,100 done responsibly absolutely if it's done 662 00:28:04,789 --> 00:28:02,640 by people like me who have looked at the 663 00:28:07,310 --> 00:28:04,799 evidence in depth 664 00:28:09,470 --> 00:28:07,320 um by all means I just don't see that 665 00:28:11,210 --> 00:28:09,480 that's happening I can't even imagine 666 00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:11,220 that happening at the governmental level 667 00:28:16,990 --> 00:28:13,679 so I agree yeah 668 00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:17,000 I mean but we do it's very obvious to me 669 00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:22,080 uh that that we we live in a world where 670 00:28:26,870 --> 00:28:24,960 there are demonic influences 671 00:28:29,090 --> 00:28:26,880 where there are 672 00:28:30,430 --> 00:28:29,100 um what's the right word 673 00:28:34,070 --> 00:28:30,440 um 674 00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:34,080 Spirits afloat in our world 675 00:28:38,210 --> 00:28:36,000 um Earth Balance Spirits I think that's 676 00:28:40,010 --> 00:28:38,220 the term that we use now who are 677 00:28:43,850 --> 00:28:40,020 inflicting a great deal of mischief and 678 00:28:46,190 --> 00:28:43,860 damage on on vulnerable people who don't 679 00:28:47,930 --> 00:28:46,200 know what's really happening to them who 680 00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,940 are being controlled or at least being 681 00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:50,159 influenced by demonic influences all 682 00:28:54,110 --> 00:28:52,500 around them I have no doubt about that I 683 00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:54,120 think a lot of schizophrenics as a 684 00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:55,440 matter of fact 685 00:29:04,029 --> 00:29:00,960 um are are being hounded uh by by these 686 00:29:06,350 --> 00:29:04,039 demonic uh beings I I think 687 00:29:07,549 --> 00:29:06,360 psychiatrists have it all wrong I don't 688 00:29:09,649 --> 00:29:07,559 think that the voices that 689 00:29:11,210 --> 00:29:09,659 schizophrenics hear 690 00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:11,220 um are coming from within I think 691 00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:13,020 they're coming from without I think that 692 00:29:18,289 --> 00:29:15,840 these people are being attacked by 693 00:29:19,789 --> 00:29:18,299 invisible forces it's interesting 694 00:29:21,649 --> 00:29:19,799 because if you really listen to what 695 00:29:24,110 --> 00:29:21,659 they say and not what the psychiatrists 696 00:29:26,269 --> 00:29:24,120 who interpret what they should be saying 697 00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:26,279 if you listen to what they say if you 698 00:29:29,510 --> 00:29:28,080 give them a chance they will say yeah 699 00:29:32,269 --> 00:29:29,520 these voices don't seem to be coming 700 00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:32,279 from me they come from other some some 701 00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:33,480 other source 702 00:29:37,909 --> 00:29:35,520 Psychiatry incidentally is opening 703 00:29:39,769 --> 00:29:37,919 itself uh more and more to this 704 00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:39,779 possibility 705 00:29:44,810 --> 00:29:42,059 um I know because I was invited to a 706 00:29:47,210 --> 00:29:44,820 conference and I presented a paper on 707 00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:47,220 this very topic and there was tremendous 708 00:29:52,669 --> 00:29:48,960 interest and openness I thought I'd be 709 00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:52,679 roasted not at all I was championed so 710 00:29:56,510 --> 00:29:54,960 there are so many psychiatrists who have 711 00:29:59,169 --> 00:29:56,520 seen 712 00:30:03,289 --> 00:29:59,179 um the the Strange 713 00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:03,299 Behaviors of some of their clients 714 00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:05,700 that make them think there's just this 715 00:30:10,190 --> 00:30:08,100 isn't quite human these these kids can 716 00:30:12,110 --> 00:30:10,200 do things that just aren't quite human 717 00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:12,120 there seem to be something else going on 718 00:30:16,850 --> 00:30:15,000 here and I think there is in many cases 719 00:30:20,149 --> 00:30:16,860 I'm inclined to think that most 720 00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:20,159 schizophrenia is is basically 721 00:30:23,750 --> 00:30:20,820 um 722 00:30:25,789 --> 00:30:23,760 due to to these voices these terrible 723 00:30:28,610 --> 00:30:25,799 voices that are just constantly hounding 724 00:30:30,769 --> 00:30:28,620 them you know kill yourself you're 725 00:30:33,049 --> 00:30:30,779 you're just a piece of crap you'll never 726 00:30:36,049 --> 00:30:33,059 succeed in this world terrible things 727 00:30:39,049 --> 00:30:36,059 that these kids usually teenage boys 728 00:30:41,510 --> 00:30:39,059 oftentimes oftentimes are being told 729 00:30:44,269 --> 00:30:41,520 which leads many to Suicide or at least 730 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:44,279 suicide attempts and very few 731 00:30:48,169 --> 00:30:45,960 psychiatrists know what to do about 732 00:30:51,289 --> 00:30:48,179 these kids except just to sedate them 733 00:30:54,169 --> 00:30:51,299 with terrible side effects they become 734 00:30:56,990 --> 00:30:54,179 sort of zombie-like the kids hate that 735 00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:57,000 stuff and they won't take the medicine 736 00:31:02,389 --> 00:31:00,000 um so I mean yeah it would be great to 737 00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:02,399 understand more about the Demonic world 738 00:31:08,350 --> 00:31:04,980 and how it is impacting our world here 739 00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:08,360 and now invisibly and 740 00:31:13,909 --> 00:31:11,460 unsuspectingly unsuspectedly by so many 741 00:31:15,590 --> 00:31:13,919 of the people who should know what to do 742 00:31:18,169 --> 00:31:15,600 about this 743 00:31:20,990 --> 00:31:18,179 totally agree I want to know more about 744 00:31:23,510 --> 00:31:21,000 what your research has told you about 745 00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:23,520 some of those Realms and how it fits 746 00:31:27,769 --> 00:31:25,200 into the hierarchy of Consciousness 747 00:31:29,389 --> 00:31:27,779 thing we're talking about but I want to 748 00:31:31,070 --> 00:31:29,399 kind of digress for just a second and 749 00:31:33,409 --> 00:31:31,080 talk about confirm what you're saying 750 00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:33,419 like one of the guys I interviewed is a 751 00:31:39,549 --> 00:31:36,360 guy named Dr Tom zinzer and he was a 752 00:31:41,630 --> 00:31:39,559 psychiatrist in Grand Rapids Michigan 753 00:31:44,090 --> 00:31:41,640 it is a therapist thing around a 754 00:31:45,409 --> 00:31:44,100 psychiatrist psychologist and he was 755 00:31:48,649 --> 00:31:45,419 doing 756 00:31:50,330 --> 00:31:48,659 lot of those guys they kind of burn out 757 00:31:52,490 --> 00:31:50,340 you know just doing 758 00:31:57,289 --> 00:31:52,500 listening to people's problems and stuff 759 00:31:58,490 --> 00:31:57,299 like that so one day in the lunchroom 760 00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:58,500 um 761 00:32:03,049 --> 00:32:00,419 one of the women who worked there just 762 00:32:05,389 --> 00:32:03,059 as kind of a part-time said hey Dr 763 00:32:08,990 --> 00:32:05,399 zinser I kind of heard you talking about 764 00:32:10,070 --> 00:32:09,000 the Monroe Institute you know and kind 765 00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:10,080 of these 766 00:32:16,070 --> 00:32:12,720 I am getting this kind of channeled 767 00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:16,080 information from this spirit guide do 768 00:32:21,470 --> 00:32:18,960 you think you'd ever want to talk and uh 769 00:32:24,649 --> 00:32:21,480 so here's a guy who's kind of reached 770 00:32:27,529 --> 00:32:24,659 his end professionally like I'm not even 771 00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:27,539 sure I'm interested in still doing this 772 00:32:32,570 --> 00:32:30,360 and I am interested in these kind of 773 00:32:34,669 --> 00:32:32,580 alternative things maybe like you you 774 00:32:36,350 --> 00:32:34,679 know when you hit nde he's like I'm 775 00:32:37,690 --> 00:32:36,360 going to give it a shot you know right 776 00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:37,700 so 777 00:32:43,549 --> 00:32:41,220 he has this experience with this Spirit 778 00:32:47,330 --> 00:32:43,559 and the spirit starts telling him 779 00:32:49,789 --> 00:32:47,340 specific things about clients he says 780 00:32:51,529 --> 00:32:49,799 you got one of your clients David and 781 00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:51,539 you've been treating it this way but 782 00:32:57,289 --> 00:32:54,720 what it really is is Spirit interference 783 00:32:59,510 --> 00:32:57,299 from his mother 784 00:33:00,470 --> 00:32:59,520 and even though his mother is trying to 785 00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:00,480 do 786 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:05,580 other side she needs to move on and and 787 00:33:11,450 --> 00:33:08,520 he's now at a he's at a crossroads right 788 00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:11,460 he's like what do I do with this you 789 00:33:16,970 --> 00:33:13,620 know do I go on with my practice the way 790 00:33:19,310 --> 00:33:16,980 that it is or do I you know so he 791 00:33:22,430 --> 00:33:19,320 decides to go off reservation and he but 792 00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:22,440 he does it in a very methodical way in 793 00:33:26,930 --> 00:33:25,140 keeping with his training you know and 794 00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:26,940 tries to say within the protocol okay 795 00:33:33,470 --> 00:33:30,480 but lo and behold over and over and over 796 00:33:35,630 --> 00:33:33,480 again he discovers exactly what you're 797 00:33:39,230 --> 00:33:35,640 saying is that the spirit guide who's 798 00:33:41,870 --> 00:33:39,240 telling him is 100 right it is the 799 00:33:45,529 --> 00:33:41,880 mother in this case in another case it 800 00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:45,539 is a very negative uh malevolent entity 801 00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,679 that wants to do just no I'd say 802 00:33:53,450 --> 00:33:51,120 Mischief but that's not strong enough 803 00:33:55,850 --> 00:33:53,460 words they want to destroy someone they 804 00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:55,860 want to you know they want to pulse they 805 00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:57,360 want to create those blockages that 806 00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:00,480 keeps that person from Divinity because 807 00:34:06,889 --> 00:34:02,340 that's what's on the other side of this 808 00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:06,899 thing so with that tell us 809 00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:09,599 tell us what youth how you think some of 810 00:34:13,790 --> 00:34:11,520 that stuff breaks down because this is 811 00:34:15,649 --> 00:34:13,800 the kind of important stuff that that we 812 00:34:17,750 --> 00:34:15,659 really need to get to this is the level 813 00:34:19,849 --> 00:34:17,760 three stuff like okay there is a 814 00:34:23,149 --> 00:34:19,859 hierarchy of Consciousness what is your 815 00:34:25,490 --> 00:34:23,159 research in a particular folks this is a 816 00:34:28,970 --> 00:34:25,500 guy who's like don't you do you read 817 00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,980 Sanskrit or or uh I I was a Sanskrit 818 00:34:33,470 --> 00:34:30,480 scholar and and 819 00:34:34,669 --> 00:34:33,480 um translator and interpreter uh many 820 00:34:37,730 --> 00:34:34,679 years ago 821 00:34:38,930 --> 00:34:37,740 um and I I wrote my first book as a 822 00:34:41,450 --> 00:34:38,940 matter of fact my first published book 823 00:34:44,329 --> 00:34:41,460 was was a translation and commentary on 824 00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:44,339 a Sanskrit on a 16th century Hindu 825 00:34:49,010 --> 00:34:45,839 philosopher 826 00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:49,020 um those talents have um you might say 827 00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:51,720 cool considerably since then so I'm not 828 00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:54,300 a sanskritist anymore I do more 829 00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:56,159 important and I think more interesting 830 00:34:59,329 --> 00:34:57,420 things like what we're talking about 831 00:35:01,609 --> 00:34:59,339 right now I just wanted to make sure 832 00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:01,619 that I give people a heads up that when 833 00:35:06,829 --> 00:35:03,960 we say you're a professor of world 834 00:35:09,710 --> 00:35:06,839 religions right what goes with that is 835 00:35:12,829 --> 00:35:09,720 is truly this level of scholarship I 836 00:35:15,890 --> 00:35:12,839 mean you know cross all these cultures 837 00:35:18,349 --> 00:35:15,900 you've investigated this thing so back 838 00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:18,359 to this issue how are you understanding 839 00:35:24,710 --> 00:35:21,119 this hierarchy of Consciousness how are 840 00:35:27,170 --> 00:35:24,720 you distilling it all down into how you 841 00:35:28,609 --> 00:35:27,180 think some of this stuff works I think I 842 00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:28,619 follow you I think I see what you're 843 00:35:34,910 --> 00:35:31,260 getting at maybe not but we'll see 844 00:35:38,089 --> 00:35:34,920 um I think that the Supreme 845 00:35:40,210 --> 00:35:38,099 uh gift that comes to us from the 846 00:35:41,990 --> 00:35:40,220 heavens from God from the Creator 847 00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:42,000 however you want to speak about 848 00:35:48,290 --> 00:35:44,880 alternate reality is free will 849 00:35:50,569 --> 00:35:48,300 and um without free will 850 00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:50,579 nothing of any interest 851 00:35:55,490 --> 00:35:53,040 could ever happen from the point of view 852 00:35:58,670 --> 00:35:55,500 of the Creator or from the point of view 853 00:36:01,370 --> 00:35:58,680 of you and me it's free will which makes 854 00:36:05,089 --> 00:36:01,380 life so interesting 855 00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:05,099 and yet creates all the problems because 856 00:36:09,950 --> 00:36:07,040 there's so many people who abuse it 857 00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:09,960 misuse it I did for a while as a young 858 00:36:14,030 --> 00:36:11,760 man and 859 00:36:17,329 --> 00:36:14,040 um but many people make a career of it 860 00:36:19,609 --> 00:36:17,339 and they become serious kill they become 861 00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:19,619 I mean what you see all around what I 862 00:36:25,069 --> 00:36:21,420 see all around me are just lazy people 863 00:36:27,349 --> 00:36:25,079 who do no serious reading who just go 864 00:36:30,650 --> 00:36:27,359 restaurant hopping for the rest of their 865 00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:30,660 lives and and are just they they don't 866 00:36:35,569 --> 00:36:32,700 give a thought to the ultimate meaning 867 00:36:38,870 --> 00:36:35,579 of things but there are others who 868 00:36:41,569 --> 00:36:38,880 simply are malevolent and take great joy 869 00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:41,579 in I don't say joy in the right way 870 00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:44,640 that's perhaps not Joy but who basically 871 00:36:52,190 --> 00:36:48,560 are so selfish are so not clued into 872 00:36:55,310 --> 00:36:52,200 the need to be a servant for the good of 873 00:36:57,950 --> 00:36:55,320 humankind they basically become part of 874 00:37:00,290 --> 00:36:57,960 the dark side they go over to the dark 875 00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,300 side our prisons are filled with people 876 00:37:04,849 --> 00:37:02,640 living on the dark side 877 00:37:07,550 --> 00:37:04,859 our neighborhoods have many people 878 00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:07,560 living on the dark side but you know 879 00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:10,800 what that's the way it has to be because 880 00:37:16,609 --> 00:37:13,920 if there isn't any freedom there's no 881 00:37:19,010 --> 00:37:16,619 point to anything there is nothing 882 00:37:22,609 --> 00:37:19,020 important that any of us will ever do if 883 00:37:25,130 --> 00:37:22,619 we're just robots who are programmed to 884 00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:25,140 to do this or that to be good or bad 885 00:37:29,810 --> 00:37:28,320 quote to be good or bad so hey Stafford 886 00:37:31,370 --> 00:37:29,820 can I ask you a specifically a question 887 00:37:33,950 --> 00:37:31,380 that you you're probably well versed in 888 00:37:36,410 --> 00:37:33,960 you know I I really think uh Michael 889 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,420 Singer I was really drawn to his 890 00:37:40,130 --> 00:37:38,640 interpretation of some of this I love 891 00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,140 what some of the western people have 892 00:37:43,849 --> 00:37:42,000 done with some of the Eastern stuff but 893 00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:43,859 he's really taken the idea of the 894 00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:45,000 samskara 895 00:37:50,870 --> 00:37:47,940 and he's really kind of given it I think 896 00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:50,880 a better understanding he was raised 897 00:37:54,890 --> 00:37:52,800 Jewish but he's a secular guy kind of 898 00:37:58,010 --> 00:37:54,900 thing but it's like 899 00:38:00,109 --> 00:37:58,020 it's the blockages you know it's the or 900 00:38:02,870 --> 00:38:00,119 it's the blockages that 901 00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:02,880 are created in this ordinary way and I 902 00:38:06,710 --> 00:38:04,680 love the way he gives the example of you 903 00:38:12,589 --> 00:38:06,720 know the guys driving along the street 904 00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:12,599 and he sees his freaking girlfriend in a 905 00:38:16,250 --> 00:38:14,880 Corvette with this guy and they're 906 00:38:18,109 --> 00:38:16,260 having a great time and they're driving 907 00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:18,119 and he's like 908 00:38:24,349 --> 00:38:21,240 he's freaking out and the next time he 909 00:38:26,810 --> 00:38:24,359 sees a Corvette he freaks out again even 910 00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:26,820 though he comes to find out it wasn't 911 00:38:31,069 --> 00:38:29,040 his girlfriend it just kind of looked 912 00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:31,079 like his girlfriend so there's something 913 00:38:36,410 --> 00:38:33,780 that didn't even happen and yet it 914 00:38:38,329 --> 00:38:36,420 creates this blockage that gets 915 00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:38,339 triggered over and over again and to me 916 00:38:41,690 --> 00:38:39,839 I just think I can relate to that I 917 00:38:43,730 --> 00:38:41,700 think everyone can relate to that on a 918 00:38:46,310 --> 00:38:43,740 personal level is that now I have 919 00:38:48,589 --> 00:38:46,320 something and it's there and I keep 920 00:38:50,089 --> 00:38:48,599 hitting it and I keep hitting it and I 921 00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:50,099 don't know what to do with it and I 922 00:38:54,050 --> 00:38:52,079 don't know how to get rid of it and I 923 00:38:55,870 --> 00:38:54,060 just gotta wonder if that guy's sitting 924 00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:55,880 in prison 925 00:39:01,069 --> 00:38:58,859 isn't somewhat of a victim of a 926 00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:01,079 situation he's created 927 00:39:07,430 --> 00:39:04,260 with his own free will but he's created 928 00:39:09,470 --> 00:39:07,440 in terms of What's blocking him from 929 00:39:12,170 --> 00:39:09,480 that light that's always shining that 930 00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:12,180 light never went out it's just it's not 931 00:39:16,190 --> 00:39:14,160 that he was drawn to the darkness 932 00:39:18,650 --> 00:39:16,200 because he had to deal with the little 933 00:39:20,930 --> 00:39:18,660 situation and now he's stuck what do you 934 00:39:23,569 --> 00:39:20,940 think of how that how that fits with 935 00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:23,579 your understanding of this that's a 936 00:39:29,329 --> 00:39:25,680 great analysis and I think that that 937 00:39:31,810 --> 00:39:29,339 most of the people in prison and I I've 938 00:39:35,450 --> 00:39:31,820 been to prisons and taught meditation 939 00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:35,460 and uh my sense is that basically 940 00:39:38,510 --> 00:39:37,200 they're victims they're victims of 941 00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:38,520 poverty 942 00:39:43,310 --> 00:39:40,560 um they they're victims of poor 943 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:43,320 education of poor parenting and they 944 00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:45,180 really didn't and they don't know how to 945 00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:47,700 to improve themselves you improve 946 00:39:52,910 --> 00:39:50,460 yourself by constantly reading by just 947 00:39:56,329 --> 00:39:52,920 challenging yourself to have new 948 00:39:58,849 --> 00:39:56,339 experiences to grow this is what this is 949 00:40:02,089 --> 00:39:58,859 what the the heavens want us to do is to 950 00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:02,099 is to grow our souls these people have 951 00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:05,520 no clue what that even means uh it's not 952 00:40:10,430 --> 00:40:07,680 because they lack pretty well it's that 953 00:40:14,150 --> 00:40:10,440 as you put it their Free Will is blocked 954 00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:14,160 it's not being activated anymore it's 955 00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:17,460 stuck and how do you get people like 956 00:40:24,470 --> 00:40:21,359 that to unstick I don't know and most 957 00:40:27,230 --> 00:40:24,480 people don't succeed ever at it but all 958 00:40:30,530 --> 00:40:27,240 you can say is that some do and some 959 00:40:33,050 --> 00:40:30,540 make great strides towards goodness and 960 00:40:35,329 --> 00:40:33,060 service it's possible 961 00:40:37,849 --> 00:40:35,339 um but you know as long as there is Free 962 00:40:40,910 --> 00:40:37,859 Will there will be there will be the 963 00:40:43,130 --> 00:40:40,920 misuse of it and um apparently the 964 00:40:45,109 --> 00:40:43,140 Creator thinks that it's it's worth it 965 00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:45,119 it's worth it just so that some may 966 00:40:50,329 --> 00:40:47,400 struggle higher and develop themselves 967 00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:50,339 and eventually after future incarnations 968 00:40:55,190 --> 00:40:52,380 maybe these people will get a chance to 969 00:40:57,710 --> 00:40:55,200 start over and might say reassemble 970 00:41:01,069 --> 00:40:57,720 their capacity for free will I do 971 00:41:02,510 --> 00:41:01,079 believe in reincarnation I I'm not a 972 00:41:06,170 --> 00:41:02,520 great fan of that Doctrine I don't have 973 00:41:08,450 --> 00:41:06,180 any memories but my reading of the 974 00:41:10,910 --> 00:41:08,460 research by 975 00:41:13,970 --> 00:41:10,920 um by Ian Stevenson 976 00:41:16,670 --> 00:41:13,980 uh just convinces me that there are many 977 00:41:18,109 --> 00:41:16,680 people who have in fact remembered their 978 00:41:19,730 --> 00:41:18,119 previous lives and it makes me wonder 979 00:41:21,710 --> 00:41:19,740 maybe I had one too and I just don't 980 00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:21,720 remember it I suspect that's true of all 981 00:41:26,810 --> 00:41:24,720 of us who are down here trying again you 982 00:41:29,150 --> 00:41:26,820 know we flunked the course maybe last 983 00:41:31,550 --> 00:41:29,160 time around and now we're giving a fresh 984 00:41:33,410 --> 00:41:31,560 start okay and that's great and I can't 985 00:41:38,810 --> 00:41:33,420 think of any better way to run a world 986 00:41:41,270 --> 00:41:38,820 if you leave a person in to a life of 987 00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:41,280 indefinite duration and that person is 988 00:41:46,130 --> 00:41:44,220 stuck at the age of 18. you know that 989 00:41:48,650 --> 00:41:46,140 person will never change over a thousand 990 00:41:50,930 --> 00:41:48,660 years so it's better just to let that 991 00:41:52,970 --> 00:41:50,940 poor soul start over again with 992 00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:52,980 different parenting different education 993 00:41:58,010 --> 00:41:55,200 and hope that this time they get it 994 00:42:02,329 --> 00:41:58,020 better I think that's what's going on uh 995 00:42:04,130 --> 00:42:02,339 at the level of you might say uh the 996 00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:04,140 Creator I think that's the Creator's 997 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:08,400 plan he wants us to grow into our full 998 00:42:14,030 --> 00:42:11,820 Divinity into our full capacity by using 999 00:42:16,849 --> 00:42:14,040 our Free Will right by educating 1000 00:42:19,430 --> 00:42:16,859 ourselves by striving by doing difficult 1001 00:42:21,589 --> 00:42:19,440 things like self-sacrifice this is what 1002 00:42:24,109 --> 00:42:21,599 I see as the meaning of life 1003 00:42:26,569 --> 00:42:24,119 and that that just inspires me to try 1004 00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:26,579 harder to write better and to write more 1005 00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:28,680 frequently and just be a better person 1006 00:42:33,710 --> 00:42:31,140 to my wife and you know it's not easy 1007 00:42:35,630 --> 00:42:33,720 being human not for me not for anybody 1008 00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:35,640 but it's a heck of a lot easier for me 1009 00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:37,380 than it is for the poor staff in prison 1010 00:42:41,930 --> 00:42:39,839 uh you know Dr Betty one of the things 1011 00:42:43,609 --> 00:42:41,940 that I really appreciate I've heard some 1012 00:42:47,630 --> 00:42:43,619 of your lectures and some of your 1013 00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:47,640 interviews is the nuanced kind of subtle 1014 00:42:51,970 --> 00:42:49,619 approach you sometimes take to some of 1015 00:42:54,109 --> 00:42:51,980 this stuff like the whole uh 1016 00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:54,119 transcendental materialism thing I think 1017 00:42:58,910 --> 00:42:57,180 is is very interesting from a 1018 00:43:00,829 --> 00:42:58,920 philosophical standpoint and how it 1019 00:43:03,470 --> 00:43:00,839 plays to that but I think it also plays 1020 00:43:05,089 --> 00:43:03,480 Into The Reincarnation thing because 1021 00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,099 that data isn't 1022 00:43:10,910 --> 00:43:07,920 clear there's a lot of 1023 00:43:13,010 --> 00:43:10,920 contradictions you know there too and 1024 00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:13,020 even in the Free Will so I got a bunch 1025 00:43:17,710 --> 00:43:14,400 of questions there the first one would 1026 00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:17,720 be how do you process the 1027 00:43:22,069 --> 00:43:19,980 experiences that we've heard I'm sure 1028 00:43:24,349 --> 00:43:22,079 you've heard them many many times of 1029 00:43:26,329 --> 00:43:24,359 near-death experience where the Free 1030 00:43:29,630 --> 00:43:26,339 Will seems to 1031 00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:29,640 be in flux you know it's like 1032 00:43:34,490 --> 00:43:32,520 do you have it's not your time 1033 00:43:37,430 --> 00:43:34,500 I don't I don't I don't want it to not 1034 00:43:39,710 --> 00:43:37,440 be my time I want to stay I don't want 1035 00:43:42,650 --> 00:43:39,720 to go back well they're not they're not 1036 00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:42,660 exercising free will or then you are 1037 00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:44,460 going to go back you you don't have to 1038 00:43:48,770 --> 00:43:46,800 go back oh I'm gonna go back to be with 1039 00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:48,780 my family okay but your son's gonna die 1040 00:43:54,910 --> 00:43:52,079 in 10 years I mean what's good where's 1041 00:43:57,770 --> 00:43:54,920 the free you know we got all these 1042 00:44:00,710 --> 00:43:57,780 paradoxical no matter how we process it 1043 00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:00,720 at least from our perspective so don't 1044 00:44:04,970 --> 00:44:03,180 you have to kind of be careful with the 1045 00:44:07,609 --> 00:44:04,980 free will oh you do Alex thank you very 1046 00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:07,619 much for that I do not want to imply 1047 00:44:15,050 --> 00:44:11,460 that we have the free will of an angel 1048 00:44:18,290 --> 00:44:15,060 or of God himself or herself our Free 1049 00:44:20,809 --> 00:44:18,300 Will is very limited by circumstances uh 1050 00:44:24,170 --> 00:44:20,819 what makes us interesting though is 1051 00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:24,180 where we can use it now we can't decide 1052 00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:26,400 oh I want to fly I'll flap my arms and 1053 00:44:30,410 --> 00:44:28,079 I'll fly there are all kinds of 1054 00:44:32,329 --> 00:44:30,420 restrictions we can't determine whether 1055 00:44:33,890 --> 00:44:32,339 or not we're going to survive the 1056 00:44:38,030 --> 00:44:33,900 near-death experience what's going to 1057 00:44:41,390 --> 00:44:38,040 happen but what we can do is you know at 1058 00:44:43,490 --> 00:44:41,400 every moment of every day right now we 1059 00:44:46,430 --> 00:44:43,500 have a choice to make what am I going to 1060 00:44:49,250 --> 00:44:46,440 say next how am I going to 1061 00:44:52,010 --> 00:44:49,260 um live my life in the next hour am I 1062 00:44:54,290 --> 00:44:52,020 just gonna crash and be lazy and and 1063 00:44:58,250 --> 00:44:54,300 just be stupid am I going to be cruel 1064 00:45:01,069 --> 00:44:58,260 there are always this little bit of what 1065 00:45:03,650 --> 00:45:01,079 makes us who we are this little nugget 1066 00:45:06,410 --> 00:45:03,660 of Freedom that we have at every moment 1067 00:45:08,210 --> 00:45:06,420 of our lives but that doesn't mean that 1068 00:45:10,190 --> 00:45:08,220 most of our Lives aren't controlled by 1069 00:45:13,550 --> 00:45:10,200 circumstances completely beyond our 1070 00:45:15,950 --> 00:45:13,560 control absolutely I agree totally 1071 00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:15,960 well I don't know if you agree I think 1072 00:45:20,990 --> 00:45:17,880 you added something there that's an 1073 00:45:24,470 --> 00:45:21,000 awesome piece absolutely awesome in that 1074 00:45:27,349 --> 00:45:24,480 we can directly experience our Free Will 1075 00:45:29,089 --> 00:45:27,359 in the moment is what I hear you saying 1076 00:45:32,750 --> 00:45:29,099 that's all you know 1077 00:45:35,809 --> 00:45:32,760 but connect that for us if you will 1078 00:45:38,510 --> 00:45:35,819 to your thinking about this larger issue 1079 00:45:40,910 --> 00:45:38,520 of free will because I think it does 1080 00:45:42,890 --> 00:45:40,920 it does create kind of an intellectual 1081 00:45:47,150 --> 00:45:42,900 stumbling block again it's like well 1082 00:45:49,550 --> 00:45:47,160 then I get you I get you Dr Betty be in 1083 00:45:53,710 --> 00:45:49,560 the moment be here now but what about 1084 00:45:58,250 --> 00:45:53,720 these bigger picture things how do those 1085 00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:58,260 interact with my localized free will 1086 00:46:01,970 --> 00:46:00,000 okay what do you give me an example of 1087 00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:01,980 what you mean by these bigger things 1088 00:46:06,230 --> 00:46:04,440 that uh well do you you wrote about you 1089 00:46:07,970 --> 00:46:06,240 wrote about the war in the Ukraine and 1090 00:46:10,910 --> 00:46:07,980 we have completely different views some 1091 00:46:12,530 --> 00:46:10,920 people are political I know like Jeffrey 1092 00:46:15,410 --> 00:46:12,540 mishlov he has some kind of wacky 1093 00:46:17,270 --> 00:46:15,420 political I'm so apolitical I don't 1094 00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:17,280 understand why I don't understand how 1095 00:46:22,490 --> 00:46:20,040 anyone could look at the world and think 1096 00:46:25,790 --> 00:46:22,500 that God is you know it's like the God 1097 00:46:29,450 --> 00:46:25,800 is on our side or God needs our help or 1098 00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:29,460 any of that that is just you you 1099 00:46:33,650 --> 00:46:31,440 can't get away from it I think we're 1100 00:46:35,569 --> 00:46:33,660 playing I think we're in some different 1101 00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:35,579 game that we have to understand at a 1102 00:46:40,490 --> 00:46:37,440 different level and I don't think it's 1103 00:46:42,349 --> 00:46:40,500 helpful to think about things from a 1104 00:46:46,490 --> 00:46:42,359 political standpoint I think it's it's 1105 00:46:48,109 --> 00:46:46,500 really unhelpful uh but you can connect 1106 00:46:49,370 --> 00:46:48,119 it to what I'm talking about 1107 00:46:52,609 --> 00:46:49,380 well 1108 00:46:56,210 --> 00:46:52,619 um what I try to do is to see things 1109 00:46:59,690 --> 00:46:56,220 from uh the point of view of the Creator 1110 00:47:02,150 --> 00:46:59,700 and I'm talking about the creator of you 1111 00:47:04,609 --> 00:47:02,160 know the entire universe 1112 00:47:07,790 --> 00:47:04,619 um I'm talking about the 1113 00:47:09,950 --> 00:47:07,800 trillion galaxies that we now know are 1114 00:47:12,650 --> 00:47:09,960 part of the Universe 1115 00:47:13,730 --> 00:47:12,660 um God created that that's what I'm 1116 00:47:15,650 --> 00:47:13,740 assuming 1117 00:47:17,030 --> 00:47:15,660 that something created that we can call 1118 00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:17,040 it God or we can call it the Creator 1119 00:47:22,250 --> 00:47:18,480 call it whatever you want to I think 1120 00:47:25,730 --> 00:47:22,260 there's a mind and a power uh behind 1121 00:47:28,670 --> 00:47:25,740 that creation behind the appearance of 1122 00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:28,680 the universe as we know it behind all of 1123 00:47:34,430 --> 00:47:30,720 those galaxies that all popped in or 1124 00:47:37,250 --> 00:47:34,440 began to evolve 13.8 billion years ago 1125 00:47:40,490 --> 00:47:37,260 I think that that that God has a plan 1126 00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:40,500 for uh people like us and I think that 1127 00:47:45,410 --> 00:47:41,960 there are probably 1128 00:47:48,109 --> 00:47:45,420 just probably Millions if not billions 1129 00:47:50,569 --> 00:47:48,119 of planets where there are people who 1130 00:47:53,450 --> 00:47:50,579 can make decisions and make their world 1131 00:47:55,309 --> 00:47:53,460 better or worse by the way they use 1132 00:47:57,410 --> 00:47:55,319 their wills and God looks at these 1133 00:47:59,809 --> 00:47:57,420 worlds with tremendous interest and 1134 00:48:03,109 --> 00:47:59,819 Fascination and you might even say hope 1135 00:48:06,470 --> 00:48:03,119 that the decisions are being made well 1136 00:48:08,809 --> 00:48:06,480 by a majority of people on that planet 1137 00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:08,819 in order to save the planet from 1138 00:48:12,950 --> 00:48:11,220 destruction I don't see any evidence for 1139 00:48:15,230 --> 00:48:12,960 that all the evidence all the evidence 1140 00:48:18,170 --> 00:48:15,240 for that points in the other direction I 1141 00:48:22,910 --> 00:48:18,180 don't see how you connect the localized 1142 00:48:25,730 --> 00:48:22,920 free will to any kind of random 1143 00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:25,740 understanding of a plan I mean that's 1144 00:48:29,870 --> 00:48:27,900 what launches us into the the Christian 1145 00:48:32,809 --> 00:48:29,880 thing as a social engineering project 1146 00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:32,819 not as uh you know as as you've 1147 00:48:37,609 --> 00:48:35,040 described in last email you know it's 1148 00:48:39,230 --> 00:48:37,619 not about this historical if it's about 1149 00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,240 the historical figure then we're having 1150 00:48:44,870 --> 00:48:41,839 a different discussion if it's about 1151 00:48:46,609 --> 00:48:44,880 extended Consciousness and our localized 1152 00:48:48,290 --> 00:48:46,619 free will then we're having another 1153 00:48:50,089 --> 00:48:48,300 discussion that's the discussion that 1154 00:48:51,829 --> 00:48:50,099 we're having it's not the first one this 1155 00:48:54,170 --> 00:48:51,839 is not about Christianity or who Jesus 1156 00:48:57,470 --> 00:48:54,180 was uh it's just 1157 00:48:59,569 --> 00:48:57,480 the way I try to imagine and I am a 1158 00:49:02,329 --> 00:48:59,579 profound Optimist I don't see any reason 1159 00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:02,339 not to be an optimist you have to choose 1160 00:49:06,170 --> 00:49:04,079 uh you can put your faith in an 1161 00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,180 optimistic worldview or in a pessimistic 1162 00:49:09,890 --> 00:49:08,400 worldview or you might say in an 1163 00:49:13,010 --> 00:49:09,900 ambiguous worldview 1164 00:49:17,809 --> 00:49:13,020 uh I simply choose to to be an optimist 1165 00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,819 and to see uh the unfolding of world 1166 00:49:24,349 --> 00:49:19,440 history 1167 00:49:28,550 --> 00:49:24,359 um as a a as going somewhere uh 1168 00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:28,560 that we can make good by choosing wisely 1169 00:49:33,410 --> 00:49:31,200 and even heroically I think we have that 1170 00:49:35,569 --> 00:49:33,420 capacity I don't see I don't see that 1171 00:49:37,609 --> 00:49:35,579 being done right now Alex don't get me 1172 00:49:39,530 --> 00:49:37,619 wrong but I think that that's the 1173 00:49:41,329 --> 00:49:39,540 challenge that we all have and I think 1174 00:49:43,970 --> 00:49:41,339 that's the challenge that God wants us 1175 00:49:46,790 --> 00:49:43,980 all to choose we want to make the world 1176 00:49:48,650 --> 00:49:46,800 better in whatever small way we can you 1177 00:49:50,630 --> 00:49:48,660 don't agree why is that no I don't agree 1178 00:49:55,130 --> 00:49:50,640 because I I think there is a disconnect 1179 00:49:56,870 --> 00:49:55,140 there and I I like like I'm so with you 1180 00:50:00,050 --> 00:49:56,880 on this right so I want people to 1181 00:50:02,630 --> 00:50:00,060 understand we're picking on little 1182 00:50:04,069 --> 00:50:02,640 topics that we can in because in the 1183 00:50:07,250 --> 00:50:04,079 bigger picture 1184 00:50:09,650 --> 00:50:07,260 like what you've had to face at 1185 00:50:11,329 --> 00:50:09,660 California State University Bakersfield 1186 00:50:14,089 --> 00:50:11,339 in terms of 1187 00:50:17,089 --> 00:50:14,099 the nitwit world religion folks that 1188 00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:17,099 will not you know I I interview guy and 1189 00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:19,680 he's not a nitwit he's a super smart guy 1190 00:50:25,069 --> 00:50:23,280 and I I really admire him but he's an 1191 00:50:26,390 --> 00:50:25,079 Ohio State University named Dr Hugh 1192 00:50:29,329 --> 00:50:26,400 Urban and he had written this book on 1193 00:50:33,050 --> 00:50:29,339 Scientology and I had him on and he was 1194 00:50:35,630 --> 00:50:33,060 able to say well yes I can establish for 1195 00:50:38,569 --> 00:50:35,640 you or that that Jack Parsons and L Ron 1196 00:50:40,550 --> 00:50:38,579 Hubbard really were in the desert in 1197 00:50:43,490 --> 00:50:40,560 trying to do the working to bring forth 1198 00:50:45,470 --> 00:50:43,500 the Antichrist but it doesn't matter if 1199 00:50:47,390 --> 00:50:45,480 that's real or not it only matters if 1200 00:50:51,589 --> 00:50:47,400 they believe that it's real and I was 1201 00:50:55,370 --> 00:50:51,599 like hold up bro no it what matters 1202 00:50:58,549 --> 00:50:55,380 first and foremost is if there's any 1203 00:51:00,230 --> 00:50:58,559 possibility that that's real if there's 1204 00:51:01,970 --> 00:51:00,240 any possibility that there's some 1205 00:51:04,250 --> 00:51:01,980 extended realm and that there's 1206 00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,260 something like the Antichrist and that 1207 00:51:09,470 --> 00:51:06,240 that affects our world that's what's 1208 00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:09,480 most important don't kid yourself but 1209 00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:12,720 but he's at a university in a world 1210 00:51:17,630 --> 00:51:15,540 religion studies department where the 1211 00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:17,640 head of the department is atheist right 1212 00:51:22,430 --> 00:51:19,920 so I think a lot a lot of people don't 1213 00:51:24,650 --> 00:51:22,440 appreciate that a lot of these guys are 1214 00:51:27,890 --> 00:51:24,660 atheists and Atheism is such a failed 1215 00:51:29,990 --> 00:51:27,900 proposition it fails intellectually and 1216 00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:30,000 it fails experimentally because it's 1217 00:51:34,190 --> 00:51:32,400 built us not on the idea that everything 1218 00:51:36,770 --> 00:51:34,200 is measurable by your brain and stuff 1219 00:51:38,809 --> 00:51:36,780 like that which is falsified all over 1220 00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:38,819 the place but it's also falsified 1221 00:51:43,190 --> 00:51:41,280 philosophically in that why are you 1222 00:51:45,650 --> 00:51:43,200 getting up in the morning and not 1223 00:51:48,530 --> 00:51:45,660 putting a gun to your head yeah you know 1224 00:51:50,990 --> 00:51:48,540 yeah it fails existing actually and 1225 00:51:54,349 --> 00:51:51,000 emotionally I quite agree okay let's 1226 00:51:57,589 --> 00:51:54,359 agree that this world basically is not 1227 00:51:59,990 --> 00:51:57,599 on a trajectory toward Improvement let's 1228 00:52:02,150 --> 00:52:00,000 agree that it's not necessarily on a 1229 00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:02,160 project a trajectory in the opposite 1230 00:52:08,990 --> 00:52:06,480 direction let's just agree that uh it's 1231 00:52:11,990 --> 00:52:09,000 wonderful that we die and that we go 1232 00:52:14,329 --> 00:52:12,000 into a realm where there is more alike 1233 00:52:17,390 --> 00:52:14,339 where there is more happiness where 1234 00:52:19,490 --> 00:52:17,400 there is more prosperity and uh where 1235 00:52:20,690 --> 00:52:19,500 there is but even that I mean Stafford 1236 00:52:22,250 --> 00:52:20,700 wouldn't you agree that that is someone 1237 00:52:25,309 --> 00:52:22,260 of a choice too as you point out and 1238 00:52:27,770 --> 00:52:25,319 you're right when you die you are 1239 00:52:30,710 --> 00:52:27,780 somewhat propelled by what you've done 1240 00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:30,720 here so you may die and go and not 1241 00:52:35,630 --> 00:52:33,240 choose which is a kind of bad choice and 1242 00:52:37,430 --> 00:52:35,640 a good reason to read your books and to 1243 00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:37,440 understand that there is a choice to be 1244 00:52:41,390 --> 00:52:39,359 made there and go towards the light 1245 00:52:43,849 --> 00:52:41,400 don't be seduced to go towards the 1246 00:52:46,549 --> 00:52:43,859 darkness but even that's a choice yeah 1247 00:52:49,309 --> 00:52:46,559 it is a choice and and uh so I'm not 1248 00:52:52,790 --> 00:52:49,319 terribly concerned about about the the 1249 00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:52,800 direction of of the world I I definitely 1250 00:52:59,210 --> 00:52:56,160 don't believe in post-humanism I think 1251 00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,220 transhumanism is a mistake okay I think 1252 00:53:05,809 --> 00:53:01,619 that basically we're just going to sort 1253 00:53:08,329 --> 00:53:05,819 of grumble along you know and but we 1254 00:53:11,690 --> 00:53:08,339 will die and when we die then a more 1255 00:53:13,730 --> 00:53:11,700 interesting World confronts us and uh 1256 00:53:16,849 --> 00:53:13,740 and and that's where I get my optimism 1257 00:53:19,490 --> 00:53:16,859 from essentially that that there this is 1258 00:53:22,430 --> 00:53:19,500 just this is just a staging area it's a 1259 00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:22,440 kind of a kindergarten and the worlds 1260 00:53:27,790 --> 00:53:25,140 will become more advanced uh the more we 1261 00:53:31,309 --> 00:53:27,800 live and The More We Choose Wisely 1262 00:53:34,010 --> 00:53:31,319 they're out there and and all of the 1263 00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,020 research that I do tells me that it's 1264 00:53:38,329 --> 00:53:36,240 not just the astral World which is which 1265 00:53:41,569 --> 00:53:38,339 is awaiting us when we die there are 1266 00:53:43,370 --> 00:53:41,579 worlds beyond that which go up 1267 00:53:46,130 --> 00:53:43,380 um and there is there's a whole 1268 00:53:48,650 --> 00:53:46,140 hierarchy of of Worlds more spiritual 1269 00:53:50,809 --> 00:53:48,660 worlds worlds that are closer to the 1270 00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:50,819 source to put it that way where things 1271 00:53:54,170 --> 00:53:52,200 will be better understood where there 1272 00:53:56,690 --> 00:53:54,180 will be more joy 1273 00:53:58,609 --> 00:53:56,700 um I agree with you maybe that's more to 1274 00:54:01,250 --> 00:53:58,619 the point like I was going to throw 1275 00:54:03,349 --> 00:54:01,260 global warming on the table as an 1276 00:54:06,349 --> 00:54:03,359 example which we could do numerous ones 1277 00:54:09,530 --> 00:54:06,359 like politics and you know uh is it 1278 00:54:12,410 --> 00:54:09,540 better to have a more free and Equitable 1279 00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:12,420 world and then people get into quibbling 1280 00:54:16,430 --> 00:54:14,400 over what that means and you know 1281 00:54:18,829 --> 00:54:16,440 shouldn't we save the planet from 1282 00:54:20,450 --> 00:54:18,839 destruction and you know I hate to tell 1283 00:54:22,490 --> 00:54:20,460 you this but God really does need our 1284 00:54:24,290 --> 00:54:22,500 help and reduce your carbon footprint 1285 00:54:27,710 --> 00:54:24,300 and all the rest of that I think the 1286 00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:27,720 connection there is very very 1287 00:54:33,650 --> 00:54:30,720 suspect in in my opinion in terms of 1288 00:54:37,430 --> 00:54:33,660 coming down one way or another what I 1289 00:54:39,950 --> 00:54:37,440 think is interesting is taking the the 1290 00:54:42,049 --> 00:54:39,960 evidence and the the hard work that 1291 00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,059 you've done and that people can tap into 1292 00:54:46,430 --> 00:54:44,160 because again that's what we're talking 1293 00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:46,440 about with your books we're talking 1294 00:54:50,750 --> 00:54:49,200 about a number of different ways that 1295 00:54:53,930 --> 00:54:50,760 you've gone about 1296 00:54:56,630 --> 00:54:53,940 kind of bringing forth information on 1297 00:54:59,569 --> 00:54:56,640 from different cultures from different 1298 00:55:02,809 --> 00:54:59,579 methods from different means of getting 1299 00:55:06,349 --> 00:55:02,819 to the bottom of what we should most 1300 00:55:07,970 --> 00:55:06,359 reasonably believe and to me I'd go one 1301 00:55:11,750 --> 00:55:07,980 step further what I think this is about 1302 00:55:13,730 --> 00:55:11,760 is is Shifting the burden of proof and I 1303 00:55:16,270 --> 00:55:13,740 think what the collection of your books 1304 00:55:19,069 --> 00:55:16,280 have done is shift the burden of proof 1305 00:55:21,410 --> 00:55:19,079 onto the shoulders of those who do not 1306 00:55:23,329 --> 00:55:21,420 accept the evidence for the afterlife 1307 00:55:25,370 --> 00:55:23,339 now it's up to them it's like you've 1308 00:55:27,230 --> 00:55:25,380 done your job now they have to show that 1309 00:55:28,849 --> 00:55:27,240 that's otherwise but the other point I 1310 00:55:32,270 --> 00:55:28,859 was going to make is 1311 00:55:35,690 --> 00:55:32,280 I don't think it's about you know if God 1312 00:55:38,150 --> 00:55:35,700 cares about the Ukrainian War but I do 1313 00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:38,160 think it's about like one thing you put 1314 00:55:43,309 --> 00:55:40,079 your finger on I think we can go 1315 00:55:45,829 --> 00:55:43,319 directly a through line from your books 1316 00:55:49,130 --> 00:55:45,839 to looking at transhumanism 1317 00:55:52,450 --> 00:55:49,140 and we can say huh I can kind of make 1318 00:55:56,450 --> 00:55:52,460 some inferences now about whether or not 1319 00:55:59,210 --> 00:55:56,460 transhumanism is a good idea I can make 1320 00:56:02,450 --> 00:55:59,220 some inferences about whether crowleyism 1321 00:56:05,450 --> 00:56:02,460 and this satanic luciferian do what thou 1322 00:56:08,690 --> 00:56:05,460 will stuff is really a good kind of 1323 00:56:10,549 --> 00:56:08,700 cultural value so those are the places I 1324 00:56:12,770 --> 00:56:10,559 would go but at the same time there's 1325 00:56:14,390 --> 00:56:12,780 some other places I'd say I don't think 1326 00:56:16,250 --> 00:56:14,400 I'd take 1327 00:56:18,890 --> 00:56:16,260 you where you're going but that's just 1328 00:56:20,089 --> 00:56:18,900 my opinion what do you think about do 1329 00:56:21,710 --> 00:56:20,099 you get the broader sense of what I'm 1330 00:56:23,750 --> 00:56:21,720 saying about what we can do with your 1331 00:56:26,089 --> 00:56:23,760 research and what I think maybe we 1332 00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:26,099 should be reluctant about doing with 1333 00:56:30,770 --> 00:56:27,359 your research 1334 00:56:34,549 --> 00:56:30,780 it does seem to me uh Alex that that you 1335 00:56:36,829 --> 00:56:34,559 you really need to go back to the source 1336 00:56:38,630 --> 00:56:36,839 metaphys the metaphysical source of the 1337 00:56:40,670 --> 00:56:38,640 universe it seems to me that you want to 1338 00:56:42,410 --> 00:56:40,680 go back that far 1339 00:56:44,270 --> 00:56:42,420 um you've challenged me to do that in 1340 00:56:46,609 --> 00:56:44,280 some of the um words that you used 1341 00:56:49,609 --> 00:56:46,619 leading up to this uh to this interview 1342 00:56:54,470 --> 00:56:49,619 it made me think about what is the 1343 00:56:57,410 --> 00:56:54,480 ultimate design of the uh Master of the 1344 00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:57,420 Universe for all of the planets that are 1345 00:57:03,829 --> 00:57:00,480 filled with people like us what does 1346 00:57:06,609 --> 00:57:03,839 that being want us to do 1347 00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:06,619 it's not as if this being needs our help 1348 00:57:13,390 --> 00:57:09,660 for his own satisfaction I think that 1349 00:57:16,190 --> 00:57:13,400 what God would want us to do is to make 1350 00:57:18,650 --> 00:57:16,200 environments that are conducive to human 1351 00:57:19,790 --> 00:57:18,660 happiness or to the happiness of three 1352 00:57:22,250 --> 00:57:19,800 beings 1353 00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,260 I think that that God looks upon that 1354 00:57:25,970 --> 00:57:24,000 with tremendous interest to see if 1355 00:57:29,450 --> 00:57:25,980 they're if we're capable of it are we 1356 00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:29,460 capable uh in uh in some wonderful way 1357 00:57:35,990 --> 00:57:32,400 of making good choices 1358 00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:36,000 um maybe not but um uh and and maybe 1359 00:57:41,329 --> 00:57:38,400 many of the planets have destroyed 1360 00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:41,339 themselves in the in in the course of um 1361 00:57:46,069 --> 00:57:42,960 of cosmic history I wouldn't be at all 1362 00:57:48,290 --> 00:57:46,079 surprised and we may do that too but I 1363 00:57:50,510 --> 00:57:48,300 think if that happens there's always 1364 00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:50,520 this other world that will be propelled 1365 00:57:55,190 --> 00:57:53,160 to the the physical world the physical 1366 00:57:57,290 --> 00:57:55,200 environment is not the only environment 1367 00:57:59,390 --> 00:57:57,300 there are these spiritual environments 1368 00:58:01,670 --> 00:57:59,400 that we're all being catapulted to when 1369 00:58:03,710 --> 00:58:01,680 we die like it or not that's going to 1370 00:58:06,410 --> 00:58:03,720 happen we're going to find ourselves in 1371 00:58:09,109 --> 00:58:06,420 an astral Zone uh where there will be 1372 00:58:11,450 --> 00:58:09,119 different kinds of choices to make and 1373 00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:11,460 different kinds of outcomes and there 1374 00:58:16,130 --> 00:58:13,200 will be hellish zones as well as 1375 00:58:18,890 --> 00:58:16,140 Heavenly zones and zones in between 1376 00:58:21,410 --> 00:58:18,900 um and I think that that's important to 1377 00:58:24,589 --> 00:58:21,420 look at that and not to shy away from it 1378 00:58:26,750 --> 00:58:24,599 like a materialist inevitably does but 1379 00:58:30,109 --> 00:58:26,760 to look at it and to think about it and 1380 00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:30,119 to plan for it I I uh am not at all sure 1381 00:58:34,790 --> 00:58:31,980 what my 1382 00:58:37,370 --> 00:58:34,800 uh Place uh in the afterlife will be 1383 00:58:40,010 --> 00:58:37,380 like I'm really not will I be considered 1384 00:58:41,930 --> 00:58:40,020 to be one of God's angels or will I be 1385 00:58:46,670 --> 00:58:41,940 found to be some sort of a schmuck who 1386 00:58:50,270 --> 00:58:46,680 is you know who who was basically uh uh 1387 00:58:51,950 --> 00:58:50,280 just not clued into who he really is in 1388 00:58:55,370 --> 00:58:51,960 his depth I don't know that it's 1389 00:58:57,349 --> 00:58:55,380 mysterious to me but I do know very sure 1390 00:59:00,410 --> 00:58:57,359 of myself that there is this world 1391 00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,420 that's coming quickly and that in all 1392 00:59:04,849 --> 00:59:02,640 likelihood the things we do in this 1393 00:59:08,210 --> 00:59:04,859 world will influence at least where we 1394 00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,220 start when we die now we're free over 1395 00:59:12,890 --> 00:59:10,559 there as well Freedom doesn't just end 1396 00:59:14,809 --> 00:59:12,900 right here when we die it continues and 1397 00:59:17,690 --> 00:59:14,819 you can continue to live well or poorly 1398 00:59:22,010 --> 00:59:17,700 selfishly or as a good servant at every 1399 00:59:23,329 --> 00:59:22,020 level uh at every level uh in in all the 1400 00:59:25,250 --> 00:59:23,339 worlds that we will ever come into 1401 00:59:28,010 --> 00:59:25,260 contact with there will be that choice 1402 00:59:31,309 --> 00:59:28,020 that in the moment choice that would be 1403 00:59:34,309 --> 00:59:31,319 challenged to to make wisely and 1404 00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,319 generously so that's how I see it I 1405 00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:36,240 think that's awesome I'll tell you as we 1406 00:59:41,510 --> 00:59:38,760 move to wrap things up Stafford I wonder 1407 00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:41,520 share with us uh first of all I have a 1408 00:59:47,150 --> 00:59:43,680 comment on that you know I love your 1409 00:59:49,010 --> 00:59:47,160 unsharedness about what awaits man if 1410 00:59:51,289 --> 00:59:49,020 you weren't if you if that that's like 1411 00:59:53,510 --> 00:59:51,299 real to me that's like anyone who 1412 00:59:55,430 --> 00:59:53,520 doesn't who doesn't walk that line they 1413 00:59:57,849 --> 00:59:55,440 haven't got the message you know what I 1414 01:00:00,589 --> 00:59:57,859 mean trouble that's right 1415 01:00:02,690 --> 01:00:00,599 uh perpetuate doubt you know doubt is 1416 01:00:05,329 --> 01:00:02,700 the most spiritual thing but what what 1417 01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:05,339 is your do you want to share anything 1418 01:00:12,170 --> 01:00:09,119 about what you've learned that you've 1419 01:00:14,870 --> 01:00:12,180 then incorporated into your spiritual 1420 01:00:17,089 --> 01:00:14,880 practice and in particular like your 1421 01:00:19,370 --> 01:00:17,099 daily or your somewhat regular spiritual 1422 01:00:22,910 --> 01:00:19,380 practice that's and in particular 1423 01:00:25,609 --> 01:00:22,920 something that's come directly out of 1424 01:00:27,710 --> 01:00:25,619 what you've learned because one of the 1425 01:00:29,089 --> 01:00:27,720 things you've touched on so frequently 1426 01:00:32,030 --> 01:00:29,099 and I think it's a beautiful thing 1427 01:00:34,670 --> 01:00:32,040 because you're such a scholarly mind and 1428 01:00:37,309 --> 01:00:34,680 a such a thinker is that you can think 1429 01:00:38,990 --> 01:00:37,319 your way into some of these things of 1430 01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:39,000 course you can feel it and experience it 1431 01:00:44,089 --> 01:00:42,000 but you can also think it so what have 1432 01:00:46,730 --> 01:00:44,099 you thought your way into in terms of 1433 01:00:48,230 --> 01:00:46,740 your spiritual practice I'm thinking of 1434 01:00:51,589 --> 01:00:48,240 Robert sheldrake whom you have 1435 01:00:54,950 --> 01:00:51,599 interviewed uh in the past and he and I 1436 01:00:57,530 --> 01:00:54,960 have very similar outlooks on things 1437 01:00:59,510 --> 01:00:57,540 um he's a prayerful person and he's an 1438 01:01:01,789 --> 01:00:59,520 amazing scientist but he's a deeply 1439 01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:01,799 prayerful person and I try to be I try 1440 01:01:07,430 --> 01:01:04,740 to meditate between 15 and 30 minutes 1441 01:01:10,370 --> 01:01:07,440 every morning when I get up I simply 1442 01:01:13,069 --> 01:01:10,380 require myself to sit down and do what 1443 01:01:15,950 --> 01:01:13,079 is not easy work for me because I am 1444 01:01:18,650 --> 01:01:15,960 easily distracted I love my mind and the 1445 01:01:21,049 --> 01:01:18,660 way it with all the problems that need 1446 01:01:24,950 --> 01:01:21,059 to be solved it's very hard for me to 1447 01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:24,960 sit down and force myself to be quiet to 1448 01:01:29,690 --> 01:01:27,599 really quiet the mind and let that sort 1449 01:01:32,870 --> 01:01:29,700 of inner Divinity sort of well up and 1450 01:01:35,270 --> 01:01:32,880 and and and overtake me and and uh 1451 01:01:40,010 --> 01:01:35,280 Express itself through me but I pray for 1452 01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:40,020 that and I even ask that um you know I 1453 01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,760 never asked God for anything 1454 01:01:45,770 --> 01:01:43,680 um I just thank God I thank God for my 1455 01:01:48,829 --> 01:01:45,780 existence that's what God is there to be 1456 01:01:52,370 --> 01:01:48,839 to be for me to be thanked just for the 1457 01:01:55,190 --> 01:01:52,380 incredible blessing of having a life on 1458 01:01:57,170 --> 01:01:55,200 this planet after all these billions of 1459 01:01:59,930 --> 01:01:57,180 years I finally get my chance you know 1460 01:02:04,930 --> 01:01:59,940 I'm delighted to be here but I also need 1461 01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:04,940 help and uh I I ask less are beings 1462 01:02:09,230 --> 01:02:07,440 my heavenly friends I think of them I 1463 01:02:11,030 --> 01:02:09,240 don't know who they are but I have a 1464 01:02:12,589 --> 01:02:11,040 feeling from reading all of the 1465 01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:12,599 literature that I've done for my 1466 01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,160 research for the writing of my books 1467 01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:16,640 that we have Spirit guides and Guardians 1468 01:02:21,710 --> 01:02:19,440 we have Spirit Muses if you're a 1469 01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:21,720 creative person like myself and these 1470 01:02:27,109 --> 01:02:23,760 are people I reached out to and asked 1471 01:02:29,450 --> 01:02:27,119 for help on a daily basis and whether or 1472 01:02:32,270 --> 01:02:29,460 not I get any help I don't know but it 1473 01:02:33,890 --> 01:02:32,280 won't hurt and and it um it keeps me 1474 01:02:36,950 --> 01:02:33,900 humble 1475 01:02:40,309 --> 01:02:36,960 um it it makes me aware that that that 1476 01:02:44,089 --> 01:02:40,319 my that my destiny may be to be one of 1477 01:02:46,370 --> 01:02:44,099 these beings to uh to help people who 1478 01:02:48,770 --> 01:02:46,380 reach up to me in a few short years I'll 1479 01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:48,780 be on the other side so I think they're 1480 01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:51,440 they're there really is a window between 1481 01:02:57,470 --> 01:02:54,480 their world and our world and it's open 1482 01:03:00,770 --> 01:02:57,480 most people don't use it most people 1483 01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:00,780 don't look through it but I do and I do 1484 01:03:05,450 --> 01:03:03,599 it not because I was taught that uh when 1485 01:03:08,210 --> 01:03:05,460 I was a kid I do it because my research 1486 01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:08,220 tells me that there are beings who look 1487 01:03:13,789 --> 01:03:11,160 to us and are happy to help us are happy 1488 01:03:15,950 --> 01:03:13,799 to be remembered by us 1489 01:03:19,190 --> 01:03:15,960 um our ancestors I remember my mother 1490 01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:19,200 and father because I'm told that they 1491 01:03:24,950 --> 01:03:22,079 like to be remembered uh on the other 1492 01:03:27,950 --> 01:03:24,960 side and so I make a point of doing that 1493 01:03:29,750 --> 01:03:27,960 so I'm very much influenced by the 1494 01:03:31,490 --> 01:03:29,760 research that I've done and that I write 1495 01:03:33,770 --> 01:03:31,500 about in my books 1496 01:03:35,809 --> 01:03:33,780 there is this sort of almost childlike 1497 01:03:38,510 --> 01:03:35,819 innocence about some of the things they 1498 01:03:40,430 --> 01:03:38,520 say that I think is important for 1499 01:03:43,370 --> 01:03:40,440 incorporating into one's spiritual life 1500 01:03:47,450 --> 01:03:43,380 that's awesome Our Guest again has been 1501 01:03:50,569 --> 01:03:47,460 Dr Stafford Betty uh please do check out 1502 01:03:54,410 --> 01:03:50,579 his books his many books great books and 1503 01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:54,420 thanks to him for indulging me in you 1504 01:03:58,730 --> 01:03:56,160 know a conversation that wasn't just 1505 01:03:59,690 --> 01:03:58,740 about these books but that doesn't mean 1506 01:04:02,270 --> 01:03:59,700 that 1507 01:04:04,549 --> 01:04:02,280 you can find a bunch of interviews with 1508 01:04:06,950 --> 01:04:04,559 the guy on YouTube and I think you'll be 1509 01:04:10,069 --> 01:04:06,960 drawn into his work but I also think 1510 01:04:12,530 --> 01:04:10,079 just presenting him this way you're 1511 01:04:15,049 --> 01:04:12,540 sharp as ever I don't know I think uh 1512 01:04:17,450 --> 01:04:15,059 yeah yes he hasn't lost the beat in 1513 01:04:19,490 --> 01:04:17,460 terms of what I think so it's been great 1514 01:04:22,250 --> 01:04:19,500 having you on and I really appreciate 1515 01:04:24,289 --> 01:04:22,260 you joining me Alex I enjoyed it too it 1516 01:04:26,390 --> 01:04:24,299 was just delightful being with you it 1517 01:04:28,670 --> 01:04:26,400 really was and thank you 1518 01:04:30,829 --> 01:04:28,680 thanks again to Stafford Betty for 1519 01:04:32,990 --> 01:04:30,839 joining me today on skeptico 1520 01:04:35,870 --> 01:04:33,000 the one question I'd have to tee up from 1521 01:04:37,069 --> 01:04:35,880 this interview is what do you think of 1522 01:04:40,490 --> 01:04:37,079 free will 1523 01:04:44,030 --> 01:04:40,500 and how do we kind of thread that 1524 01:04:46,970 --> 01:04:44,040 impossible needle that we have localized 1525 01:04:49,510 --> 01:04:46,980 immediate free will but maybe yet 1526 01:04:52,789 --> 01:04:49,520 sometimes it seems like we don't have 1527 01:04:54,829 --> 01:04:52,799 Global Free Will I don't know I think 1528 01:04:57,890 --> 01:04:54,839 that's an impossible contradiction to 1529 01:04:59,750 --> 01:04:57,900 even contemplate but I'd love to hear 1530 01:05:02,210 --> 01:04:59,760 your thoughts about it because I love 1531 01:05:05,030 --> 01:05:02,220 connecting with you all and I love 1532 01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,040 hearing what you have to say especially 1533 01:05:11,270 --> 01:05:07,920 if it's smart and if it's new and if it 1534 01:05:13,789 --> 01:05:11,280 allows me to grow so let me hear from 1535 01:05:18,049 --> 01:05:13,799 you skeptical form or however you find 1536 01:05:21,410 --> 01:05:18,059 me until next time take care and bye for 1537 01:05:21,420 --> 01:05:26,130 foreign